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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 1 May 2025
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Displaying 1488 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Good morning to the witnesses. Thank you for joining us this morning and for your comments so far.

You have all identified a gap between process and outcomes, and a failure to understand the connections. Given that one of the reasons for this inquiry is the lack of other levers to consider changing outcomes and making human rights and equalities real for people, where are the failures in that implementation gap? We have talked a bit about understanding, but we also heard questions about lack of accountability and leadership. Why does the public sector equality duty as we have it now not work? Rohini Sharma Joshi, I will start with you.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Rohini, what are your views on Age Scotland’s understanding of, or work with, the third need of fostering good relations?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

You talked about the failure overall to address inequalities for disabled people. The PSED is only one lever in the range of available measures. I am wary of stepping on colleagues’ toes—I know that others want to come in on these issues, too—but is the understanding of what equalities actually means underpinning some of the failure? If so, what needs to change? Given the lack of action for years, is there something particular going on for disabled people?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

You mentioned the idea of using the tools earlier on—in other words, starting from the equality impact assessment approach and looking at existing structural inequalities and so on. Do you think that that would help us to get into the nuts and bolts of what you described as the “bread and butter” of everyday life—housing, education and healthcare—rather than specific issues that relate to specific protected characteristic groups?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

I see that Pauline Nolan wants to come back in.

11:30  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks very much. Others want to come in on the subject, too, so I will leave it at that.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Good morning. Thank you for joining us and for your comments so far.

The difference between the presentations that you are giving us and what we heard last week is quite stark. To an extent, that is one of the reasons why we are undertaking this inquiry. Without the opportunities that we were hoping for during the human rights bill discussions, the PSED is something that we can focus on. We can look at where the duties are not being met.

I was interested in what Clare Gallagher said in her answer to Karen Adam’s question. We are failing on the intersectional aspects and we are failing to understand the complexities of the duties. Do you see that failure as being because the focus is on the process rather than on the outcome? Does that need to be addressed in the reforms? Others around the table will explore the reforms in more detail later, but is the reason for failure that distinction between process and outcomes?

09:45  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Do you think that some of that is down to a lack of data or to not collecting the right type of data?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Do the reforms that are currently under discussion go far enough?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks, Jatin.

I ask the same question of Jill Wood, about the gap between process and outcome, and whether the PSED is delivering the outcomes that it was thought it could deliver.