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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 June 2025
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Displaying 1571 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

I want to come back to a couple of things that have been said. I will come to Robin White first.

You have spoken about age and about self-identification and self-declaration. Should there be any gatekeeping, whether that is medical, such as through the gender recognition panel and the assessment of information about dysphoria and other evidence, or should we completely disentangle the process from gatekeeping? How do you see that element of the bill working?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

I will leave it there.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

I want to explore a bit further the issue of depathologising. I appreciate that the context of private versus state healthcare in Denmark is different, and that we have issues around waiting times that we have well explored. Did that depathologising come across as a really significant shift in the experiences of the trans people you interviewed?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

I will stick with first names, too.

I thank all three witnesses for coming to the meeting and for their opening statements. It has been helpful to hear those in relation to some of the other things that we have heard today and prior to today.

I will ask a couple of questions about the case for change and some of the requirements that we would be removing from the gender recognition process if we pass the bill as it is, which are for medical and psychological diagnosis and for the panel of experts to have an important assessment, or gatekeeping, role.

Sandra, you talked about the polarised concerns that we experience in the UK not being manifested elsewhere. Could you say a little more about how the case for reform that we hear, particularly in Scotland, has been different elsewhere? Where did the catalyst for reform come from elsewhere, if it was not borne out of the same kind of debate that we might be having here in Scotland?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Sorry, can I just come in on that point? You say that the shift to self-ID will remove any gatekeeping. What gatekeeping do you envisage that there should be? Is the only legitimate gatekeeping the current gender recognition panel that assesses the dysphoria diagnosis?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Professor Sullivan, may I just interrupt you? That is not really the question that I asked. The question that I asked was about the process for getting a GRC, because that is what the bill that we are considering is about. We are not considering how medical records are stored, held or used, or how different lists for different screening processes are managed. Given that there are trans people who do not have a GRC who get—or, possibly, do not get—the medical treatment that they require, why does changing the process of getting a GRC have the impact that you claim that it does?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Thank you. I have just one follow-up. We heard something in a previous session that I suppose comes down to that question of harm and what has been described to us as the competing rights of different groups. I think that you both mentioned in your introductory remarks that it is important for us to keep in mind the notion of confidentiality linked to the privacy of trans people. We heard previously that the right to privacy for trans people going through an accessible non-invasive process would come with very serious consequences. Are you saying that your assessment is that those serious consequences are not based in objective evidence at the moment? Does your assessment indicate that there will not actually be serious harm and that no serious consequences would arise if we were to pass the bill?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Thank you, that is really clear.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

No—the distinction that you made at the end of it is really helpful.

Chris, I would like to ask you about your detailed analysis and knowledge of the situation in Denmark. It has been suggested that your research has found that there is a desire in Denmark to make access to medical treatment pathways self-declared, too. Can you say a little more about that? From your analysis and research, what is your position on medical gatekeeping in relation to the different stages of transition that people might go through?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 June 2022

Maggie Chapman

Thank you, that is helpful.

In your view, is depathologisation an integral part of the bill that we are scrutinising?