Seòmar agus comataidhean

But, in doing so, you will take into account the issues that are expressed.

Good morning, minister. Thank you for joining us this morning.

I have a few questions about community participation and community engagement, and the issues that they have brought to us. We were in Aberdeen for a day at the start of the inquiry to speak to community groups, and we also had one of our committee meetings in Aberdeen. We heard from people who work directly with community groups or facilitate their work—that included local authorities—and one of the things that they said quite clearly was that trust in their aims and ambitions is pretty low. There are a lot of fine words around what they mean, and we all share the endeavour when it comes to that point. We know the end point, but we do not know how to get there. There is a lack of trust in communities and community groups about the direction of travel. How have you answered the challenge of the lack of trust that community groups have not necessarily in the Scottish Government itself but in the whole just transition process?

I suppose—

This is a particular point: engagement happens, communities tell the Government what they want or what they think should happen, but nothing changes. We must address that problem. It is linked to a sense that communities can jump up and down all they like, but it is the usual suspects who get their way. I heard what you said about needing to see progress and change and then people will realise the benefits, but I am not sure that communities are clear how that change will happen with their involvement or how it will not just be the usual suspects—the players who are already active and powerful in the region—who have the final word, if you like.

I get that. We are just a couple of years into the process, and I hear what you say about the participatory budgeting fund. I know that other people want to speak about that specifically. There have been questions about the balance of that compared with the rest of it, but I will let others cover that.

One of the challenges, which you have spoken about, is wanting, and having the ambition to have, a co-created just transition process that is about more than just energy. It is really an economic transition that we are looking at which will affect every aspect of people’s lives.

There is a question that community groups and communities have. When they say that something is not working, they do not necessarily see policies changing, whether that is in local government or national Government. They say, “We want this to happen in our community,” and the policies around them do not join up. They do not enable or facilitate. There is frustration about not only the lack of trust that we have spoken about but about things not being joined up. It is not necessarily about resource; it is about approach.

How are your conversations going with local authorities and other public agencies in the region and with Government itself about making sure that things are joined up and that we are getting away from the siloing of planning or whatever? If it is not just energy that we are focused on—I think that we all agree that it cannot be—how are we making sure that we think across departments and do not end up with siloed disconnect?

Thank you.

I understand what you are saying about the people who will no longer have roles, but I am talking about the people who will. I imagine that the jobs will be slightly different. What skills and training will be in place for them for that, and to allow them to do the jobs that they want to do?

Thank you for that.

One of the elements of the work that the future industry board is doing now, which I presume will feed into the just transition plan, is around skills and the upskilling and reskilling shifts that are required. There was an expectation that there would be very clear shared responsibility—that is probably the kindest way in which I can put it—among the Scottish Government, the council, the joint venture and possibly others to secure the upskilling, reskilling and retraining that will be needed not only for the current employees who are retained but for supply chain workers, too.

Thank you, Susie. That is really helpful.

Earlier, Iain Hardie said that this is the just transition in action. Those were his words. It goes to the business, employees and supply chain issues that we need to deal with. However, I have a little bit of anxiety about that. There can be an industry shift or change, which we are anticipating, from a refinery to an import hub. Although that is a change, it does not necessarily speak to the just transition. It is a transition in that it is a change.

In response to a question from the convener, you said that this clearly will be part of the just transition plan. I appreciate that the plan is still being worked up and has yet to be published, but how will we ensure that there is not just a shift, so that we are not just saying, “Okay, we will retain jobs. Maybe we will have a few more jobs over here and over here”? Rather, we should be talking about the transition as a whole, which involves more than a shift from one kind of industrial process to another. There are social elements, as well as the economic and industrial elements.

Good morning, cabinet secretary, and thank you for being here this morning.

In questioning the previous panel, Colin Smyth and I tried to understand a little bit more about the impact on jobs. I take what you say about the figure of 400 being an estimate; it is not certain yet. However, I found it quite concerning that no analysis seems to have been done and no thought seems to have been given to understand the consequences for the supply chain with regard to the indirect jobs at the refinery. I know that that is only one element of the work that happens at Grangemouth, but—we did not go into this in any detail this morning—the other operations will still involve indirect supply chain work, contractors and that type of thing.

What assessment has the Scottish Government done or what assessment is it planning to do? That feeds into the just transition plan as well. We have heard suggestions that 50,000 jobs could be created in relation to the freeport proposal. Obviously, not all of them would be at Grangemouth or related to the refinery.

What is your understanding of the data that we have and the data that we need, and the plans to understand the consequences for supply chain jobs? We did not get any information on that earlier.