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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 21 February 2026
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Displaying 2113 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Just now, however, we are writing a blank cheque, because we do not know what is coming further down the line.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

None of those groups came to us and said that there should be no change at all. I cannot remember that being said at all. They all said that they accepted change; however, they were protesting against the fact that the bill that has been brought forward has no detail for them to get behind—or not get behind.

Unite the union said:

“The Scottish Government could not have drafted a more incomprehensible, incoherent and dreadful Bill. The plans to transfer services, people and property from local authorities to the Scottish Government are a recipe for disaster and represent an all-out assault on local democracy.”

Do you not accept that the lack of detail is causing those concerns for many organisations across Scotland?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Do you not admit that the process that you have followed has caused all that uncertainty? If you had done it the other way round and had the co-design first and then the bill, there would be less uncertainty for groups such as Unite the union.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

I will move on to my next point. We mentioned standing orders earlier. According to rule 9.3 of the Parliament’s standing orders, a financial memorandum should set out the

“best estimates of the costs, savings, and changes to revenues to which the provisions of the Bill would give rise”.

We heard earlier that this financial memorandum seems to have more financial holes than a sieve. Is there a possibility that you are breaking the Parliament’s own rules here?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Why is there not? It is known that there will need to be an IT system to support this. You said that you did not want to pluck figures out of the air for an IT system, but figures have been plucked out of the air for every other aspect of the bill. Why could there not have been a best estimate for an IT system?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

There will be IT costs relating to this bill; surely there should have been some provision for those costs in the financial memorandum.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

They have the statutory duty today, but they might not have it next year or the year after. They might be burdened by a capital cost for years to come, because they do not know what will happen.

I will move on to my next question. You mentioned COSLA’s figures—I think that COSLA has estimated a cost of £1.5 billion—and said that you do not agree with them.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Would you expect to see that soon, minister?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

On the VAT implications, we discussed at the last committee meeting the figure of, I think, £32 million, around which there was also some uncertainty. CIPFA seemed to dispute it. Is there a new estimate for VAT, or do you still think that £32 million might be at risk?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Okay. I will move on, because we are getting frustrated on that point.

Am I correct in saying that we are no clearer whether assets will transfer from the local authorities to a new national care service? You have said that that will be part of the co-design process.