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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 3 August 2025
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Displaying 1757 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

They have the statutory duty today, but they might not have it next year or the year after. They might be burdened by a capital cost for years to come, because they do not know what will happen.

I will move on to my next question. You mentioned COSLA’s figures—I think that COSLA has estimated a cost of £1.5 billion—and said that you do not agree with them.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Would you expect to see that soon, minister?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

On the VAT implications, we discussed at the last committee meeting the figure of, I think, £32 million, around which there was also some uncertainty. CIPFA seemed to dispute it. Is there a new estimate for VAT, or do you still think that £32 million might be at risk?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Okay. I will move on, because we are getting frustrated on that point.

Am I correct in saying that we are no clearer whether assets will transfer from the local authorities to a new national care service? You have said that that will be part of the co-design process.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

What would you say to those local authorities whose budgets are coming up soon and whose capital plans contain new care homes? Why on earth should a local authority keep a new care home in its capital plan when the bill is causing so much uncertainty?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Local authorities are providing care just now. Given that it has been a few weeks since COSLA submitted those figures, should you not have had those conversations before coming to the committee?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

I guess that that highlights that the process itself is wrong, because that discussion should have been had with COSLA before we had even got to this stage. Obviously, we disagree about that—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

In evidence to the committee, the witness from CIPFA said:

“Mechanisms are in place to look at the quality of services and drive that up. The question is how we build on the existing arrangements.

Integration joint boards have been up and running for seven years. That is not a long time. There is also a lot of legislation that has been held in reserve that could be brought in to take the boards on to the next step. However, it seems that we are throwing the baby out with the bath water and starting again.”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Accountability Committee, 25 October 2022; c 29.]

I presume that you disagree with that statement. Can you explain why extra powers around social care cannot be given to the IJBs?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

From what we have heard so far, it seems that it could have been done the other way round. We could have had the co-design first, and then the introduction of a bill that we would all have understood much more.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Douglas Lumsden

Why would they have said that that was not the right way? I do not understand that, because we would have had more detail.