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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 August 2025
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Displaying 1714 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

You do not know—okay. I think that that role is key. My view is that those organisations are non-strategic because of the critical interaction between the two sources of finance, and I am not hearing any clarity in the proposals about how you are going to deal with those finances differently. It is all tied up in the votes, as far as I can see. If you do not deal with that issue, I do not think that we have answers to that.

On the interaction with the national care board, from the answers that you have given, I am still struggling to understand the point at which a decision might be taken nationally to instruct one of the integration authorities to do something. Is that the relationship that you foresee?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

The intervention powers are already there and ministers can already do that. You have said that you want to increase local democratic accountability; I am wondering about the interaction between that and the national board. Suppose a local authority says that it does not have any money and is skint because it has had its budget cut for more than a decade—or probably for 15 years by then—and that it does not have any more money to put in. Is it your view that the national body will tell it to put money in?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

That is 30 million quid to not tell local authorities to do things differently, because you said that you do not envisage local authorities being told that they should do things differently or spend more money.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

That was going to be one of my questions. Would you say that my figures are correct because the original memorandum covered five years?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

Your last point, about how the dynamics of the money work, is perhaps key. Those dynamics do not work at the moment because the partnerships are funded jointly by the NHS and local authorities. They put money into the pot and then pull it back out again, and there is no real strategic intent as to what they are doing. The six voting members are split 50:50, so that is where it lands. Are you proposing to change that, or are you in a process of longer-term negotiation about what that might look like?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

Okay, but you do not think that the fundamental power dynamic will change. The two organisations—the NHS and local authorities—will continue to put money into the pot to fund the social care outcome.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

What is the total?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

I find that broader illustration useful. I am trying to explore the interaction between how money is spent and raised at local and national levels and the point at which there is an instruction on that, rather than saying that that is the only function.

Perhaps you could explain to me a bit about co-design, which you mentioned. I find it a little difficult to believe that a group of care users—people who rely on care services and the great work that our carers do through local authorities and others—came together in a room and said, “What we need in order to make our lives better is a fairly cosmetic tweak to the IJB and a board that might advise ministers as to when they might want to use the powers that they already have.” Was that the tone of the conversation? Those people have the lived experience that you have mentioned. Surely they were saying, “I need more frequent care visits, and I need somebody who will be able to stay longer.” I recognise that you are setting out the framework, but drawing the line between the money that we are spending and those outcomes seems to me to be pretty tenuous at best.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

I am keen to get on the record the costs in the first instance. We have quite an unusual set of papers. There was an original financial memorandum, then an updated financial memorandum, and now there is a new financial memorandum. According to the first set of figures in the original financial memorandum, the delivery could cost between £644 million and £1,261 million. Is that correct?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

Could you give me those extrapolated figures again, please?