Skip to main content
Loading…

Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Criathragan Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 August 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 1714 contributions

|

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

The committee was told earlier this week that the legislation in front of the Parliament, in unamended form, could expose the public to a bill of £3.9 billion. Is that correct?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

You would understand, minister, that none of this is ideal. We are talking about variances between £3.9 billion and £2 billion and trying to shave away an understanding of what some of the cost base might be. For a finance committee to be brought such evidence within the space of three days is deeply worrying, is it not?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

Would you not consider that the core cause is the chaotic way in which the legislation has been pursued? You have introduced one model, which you have completely changed during the process, and you have recognised some of the reasons for that.

You are talking about completely different delivery mechanisms. In your evidence today you have been unable to express what the shape of the national care service board will be or how integration authorities will operate. You have also given us a cost variance that jumps between £1.8 billion and £2 billion and then to £3.9 billion. You are not able to express any of the co-design models that will be conducted after this point, which might add to or increase costs, and which committee members have been greatly concerned about. Is the core issue not the way in which you are handling the legislation, and in how it has been handled for years?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

The core of what we are talking about is that the hundreds of millions of pounds that you are asking the taxpayers to pay is for bureaucracy rather than for care workers, is it not?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

I want to ask a little more about the core of the reform agenda. You have already touched on the problems of relationships in IJBs. We asked your officials about that earlier in the week. There is real dysfunction at the core of how money flows between the NHS and local authorities, and there is a lack of strategic ability to address that. How will the reforms that you have put in front of us address that core problem?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

I will come back to oversight. What will that shared accountability do to deal with the core problem that two different sets of budgets go into one pot, that there are votes from the NHS and local authorities, and that they cannot decide strategically about what needs to be invested in?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

I will come back to the national scrutiny issue shortly. We still do not know what the changes will look like at local level or how the relationships will change. You have already said this morning that you have identified problems in those relationships, but you cannot tell us how voting rights and so on will shift at local level.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

That is useful.

Following on from Mr Mason’s questions, I want to touch on the integration authorities. Can you give me an update of your estimated costs for the changes necessary to introduce the new versions of the IJBs?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

So, if the total cost is £65.8 million, it feels to me, given the answers that you gave to my colleague, that the costs are pretty much going to be the same.

Let us take the health and social care partnership in Dundee. At the moment, there are 18 members sitting on that board and the votes are split equally. There are six voting members—three from local authorities and three from the health board. Are you proposing that we change that model?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Michael Marra

Do you mean that, if the committee had signed off the original FM, we would potentially have been looking at a bill of £3.9 billion?