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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 December 2025
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Displaying 1960 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of NHS Tayside”

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Michael Marra

But surely there has to be consistency. Rachel Browne, have you seen in your examination of the issue evidence that the board has asked for, and is seeing, reports setting out progress against the 51 recommendations, or is the reporting against a whole system change programme that might represent some of them but not others and which includes things of different scope? Have we lost focus on the outcomes of the Strang report over the past six years?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of NHS Tayside”

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Michael Marra

So, one of the responses of the new leadership team, which you have said is bringing in this different expertise, was to downgrade the scope of the programme. Part of its response to the crisis was to say, “Actually, we need to narrow the focus.”

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of NHS Tayside”

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Michael Marra

Convener, I thank you and the committee for your forbearance and allowing me time to ask questions, and I thank the Auditor General for what is, I hope, a very useful report. You have highlighted, rightly, that there have already been an awful lot of reports from various sources.

To start with, I want to follow on from Colin Beattie and ask about delayed discharge. You have said that things are taking too long and that there is no clear plan in place. Ryan Caswell, a constituent of mine, has been a delayed-discharge patient for five years and 10 months in completely inappropriate settings. I have raised his case again and again and again and again, but there seems to be no progress in getting him out of that inappropriate setting and into another situation.

My question, then, is this: is the structure limiting progress? You have touched a little bit on the interaction between the health board and the IJBs. In the research that you have done and the work you have looked at, is the relationship between the IJBs and the health board just too intractable to deliver an outcome and make the change?

12:15  

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of NHS Tayside”

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Michael Marra

On 2 May, I asked the board when it will next examine the business case and associated costings for the move, and it has still not provided any indication of when it will do so. Has Rachel Browne or Eva Thomas-Tudo seen in their work any evidence that the board has looked at a revised plan setting out the costings for, and the impact of, such a move?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of NHS Tayside”

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Michael Marra

I suppose that what I am asking—

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of NHS Tayside”

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Michael Marra

You started the evidence session by talking about the issue of leadership, Auditor General, and the comment in the report about NHS Tayside having

“Limited skills and capacity for leading and participating in the”

whole-system change programme really jumps out. You have said that the board is trying to bring in a single member of staff to do that work, but can you say more about where that capacity and that capability are missing? Is it in the IJBs, or is it in the central leadership? What is the deficit that the board is trying to make up?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of NHS Tayside”

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Michael Marra

Okay. Surely, given this changing environment, with different leadership over different periods of time, we should not be losing sight of those recommendations. They came out in 2020, and the progress report, which came back in 2021, has been described to me as

“the worst report in Scottish public life”.

As the convener has pointed out, it showed local bodies in Dundee misleading the public about progress that had not been made. We had the oversight assurance group in 2021, which reported in 2023, and now we have the whole system change programme.

All of that leads me to ask this question: do we not need external leadership to actually deliver this? The current model of leadership is just not working, is it?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of NHS Tayside”

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Michael Marra

Is anybody reporting to the board on progress against those 51 recommendations in the report that was brought out? A lot of work went into that analysis. Are those things being reported on? I have to say that I cannot see any evidence that they are. They are being substituted by one programme after another, instead of someone saying, “This is the mission. We need to deliver it. How do we get there?” After all, we are now six years on.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of NHS Tayside”

Meeting date: 10 December 2025

Michael Marra

I want to stick with the issue of scope for a moment. Will the current scope of the whole system change programme meet the 51 recommendations of the Strang review?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 December 2025

Michael Marra

I will close by returning to the issue of public spending, which of course you comment on quite regularly. I am thinking about two of your reports: one entitled, “NHS in Scotland 2025: Finance and performance”, and another, published more recently, in November, which is entitled, “The 2024/25 audit of NHS Tayside”. The picture that both reports paint is of a Government that is unable to change services. There does not seem to be a process whereby it can deliver change and efficiency on the public spending side. If you are looking at a tripod of issues around tax and growth, but the Government is focused on the third leg—spending decisions—and it is not able to deliver on those, is it not a key issue of concern if that is its principal focus and you, as Auditor General, keep telling the Parliament that it is not able to deliver change and manage public spending effectively?

10:45