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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 March 2026
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Displaying 2143 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Michael Marra

Certainly—I have just given you two quotes from different areas. Both the Finance and Public Administration Committee and this committee have taken such evidence—whether it was in relation to the financial memorandum or this committee’s side of the question. Those things have been raised and I am happy to provide the member with—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Michael Marra

Yes—absolutely. Wherever the evidence was given to Parliament, the issues about financial sustainability are still very relevant. The final example is that Kevin Northcott from Rossie Young People’s Trust said:

“Approximately 50 per cent of our current cohort of young people ... are cross-border placements.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 29 March 2023; c 11.]

Minister, in your wish to reduce the number of cross-border placements, the prevailing trend seems to be to do so to as close to zero as possible. That adds significant questions about the financial sustainability of that incredibly important sector.

I presume that, in the circumstances, our concern is not about the provision of the service for children in Scotland and from Scotland. The policy trajectory of removing—as much as possible—English young people from the system will result in institutions not being able to continue to operate. That should be a significant concern in relation to the policy direction that we are taking. I would appreciate any clarification from the minister on what she is going to do about the sector’s financial sustainability if her policy trajectory is to be adopted.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Michael Marra

I am happy to look further at the figures and discussions.

In closing, I turn to the amendments. I have listened to the minister’s case and I assume that she will press her amendment 112, which pre-empts my amendment 214 on the broader direction of travel. I am happy to meet her to discuss my other amendments. In that light, I do not intend to move my amendments.

I had hoped that the amendments would improve the clarity and operation of the system, which tends to be chaotic. The lack of capacity in the English system is part of a function of the chaos that I described at the start of the discussion.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Michael Marra

The Promise, as part of what is established in Scotland, is certainly part of the prevailing policy discourse that I am describing.

I move on to finances, which are closely attached to the cross-border issue. In the Finance and Public Administration Committee and this committee, the Parliament has heard evidence that our secure accommodation services are incredibly dependent on cross-border placements to keep the lights on. It is placements from England that allow those services to continue to operate. The Good Shepherd Centre said that Scotland has been turning to England “to ensure sustainability”. St Mary’s Kenmure said:

“Without that income subsidy, no service for Scottish children would exist.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 29 March 2023; c12.]

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

But the bill identifies that what is delivered locally is the core problem and at the heart of this. To be fair, you said that local people—or local authorities and the NHS—recognise that change is needed. That is why we had IJBs and, before that, change funds. Those issues were recognised by the institutions, yet we are still in the position in which, if you have two competing sets of priorities with voting rights on one board, the money cannot flow to the strategic objective. You are not proposing anything in the bill to solve that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

We were told on Tuesday that the board could do things such as workforce planning. Why can civil servants not help ministers to do workforce planning at the moment?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

Would the national care board replace those 170 civil servants? You have civil servants sitting next to you, so I am not asking you to chuck people out the door, but you suggest that that is where that money will come from.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

Will you explain that, then? It is a little bit confusing, given the evidence that we received on Tuesday. The figure of £3.9 billion, frankly, came as a great surprise to the whole committee.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

We will wait and see.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Michael Marra

That is a significant workforce, which could be addressing these concerns and helping you to deal with issues.