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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 25 August 2025
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Displaying 1714 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 27 June 2023

Michael Marra

I start by declaring an interest: two immediate family members work in children and family services at Dundee City Council.

That brings me to Mr Emmott. You talked about the expansion of early years provision and the number of people involved. At the same time, the number of additional support needs teachers in Dundee has almost halved since 2010, dropping from 165 to 93. That is in the context of a drop in the number of teaching staff across the board in Dundee, despite the number of pupils having remained roughly steady. That does not feel strategic as a way of delivering better outcomes for kids from the most disadvantaged backgrounds.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 27 June 2023

Michael Marra

Absolutely. The purpose of my comment is not necessarily to criticise you on that issue. We could have that discussion elsewhere. My concern is about public sector reform and the process of driving that. You have described this as an outcome that is to be delivered by diktat of the Scottish Government. It wants there to be a focus on this area. It also wants there to be a focus on early years, as you said earlier. Dramatically cutting provision for the next stage for the most vulnerable children at the same time, with no sign of that recovering, does not feel like a strategic approach. As a council, you have to respond to that instruction, but it does not feel like a strategic approach to public sector reform. That is a comment from me, but perhaps you could reflect on the process.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 27 June 2023

Michael Marra

You put forward the figure of 1 per cent of costs being for the executive function, and colleagues also mentioned it. I find that some of the discussion about shared services misses the point in some respects: we are talking about a small number at the top, rather than the bulk of the costs. Has there been discussion across the Tayside region about a shared leadership team with one chief executive and one director of finance, for example?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform Programme

Meeting date: 27 June 2023

Michael Marra

There was also mention in the evidence of the medium-term financial strategy that was published by the Government. The Institute for Fiscal Studies said that that told us that a significant funding gap was looming but gave little sense of how to address it. The Fraser of Allander Institute said the same, as did the Scottish Parliament information centre. As organisations, what have you learned from the medium-term financial strategy about the challenges and the opportunities that are in front of you? Did it illuminate? Did it help?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Medium-term Financial Strategy, Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Policy Prospectus

Meeting date: 13 June 2023

Michael Marra

That would be useful for the committee and for the permanent secretary and leaders of departments.

Part of the commentary recognised that there would be pay growth, which you have outlined today, and that we have to understand affordability in the other areas. On that basis, commentary about the medium-term financial strategy was that some areas are light on costings—the national care service and childcare have been mentioned by a number of colleagues. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that there is little sense of how the gap will be closed. Having read the strategy and listened to you—if I can characterise it this way—it feels a little bit like you are hoping that something will come along.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Medium-term Financial Strategy, Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Policy Prospectus

Meeting date: 13 June 2023

Michael Marra

Can you say anything more specific?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Medium-term Financial Strategy, Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Policy Prospectus

Meeting date: 13 June 2023

Michael Marra

Thank you for all the information that you have given so far, cabinet secretary. On 16 May, we took evidence from the permanent secretary on a range of issues regarding operation of the civil service. One issue that the committee is interested in is the status of the resource spending review and the objective of returning the public sector workforce to its pre-Covid size. The permanent secretary talked a little about progress in that area. When we asked about the status of that policy within Government, he said:

“I do not think that that has been publicly stated by the new Government.”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 16 May 2023; c 36.]

Can you give us clarity on whether that approach remains the policy of the Scottish National Party Government?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Medium-term Financial Strategy, Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Policy Prospectus

Meeting date: 13 June 2023

Michael Marra

I am taking that answer as a yes. It is important to have clarity, given the frank lack of clarity from the permanent secretary, whose department seems to be pursuing a particular trajectory, but who said that he had no clarity on the stated policy of the Government. It might be useful if that were stated in clear terms. Am I correct in saying that your answer is yes?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Medium-term Financial Strategy, Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Policy Prospectus

Meeting date: 13 June 2023

Michael Marra

Okay—thank you.

Do you have a date for a meeting on the fiscal framework with ministers from the UK Government?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Medium-term Financial Strategy, Economic and Fiscal Forecasts and Policy Prospectus

Meeting date: 13 June 2023

Michael Marra

So, the “blunt tool”, as you put it, that was used by your predecessor, Kate Forbes, has been dropped.