Seòmar agus comataidhean

Good morning, panel, and thank you for your opening statements.

A freedom of information request has revealed that, as of 3 December 2021, 11 trans women were being held in the Scottish Prison Service and more than half were housed in the female estate. Why are the others not being housed in the female estate? Do they not have a GRC?

You said that one of the things that you take into consideration is declaration of a GRC. We know that the Scottish Prison Service’s gender identity and gender reassignment policy is currently under review and might well be revised to give priority status, as it were, to GRC holders. Those opposed to the bill believe that the removal of the medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria will make it significantly easier for prisoners to obtain a GRC, which means that the number of those who have a GRC and are therefore entitled to be held in the women’s estate will likely rise.

Let me be clear: this is about creating a balance between transgender-related rights and the safety and wellbeing of the female prison population and their protection from bad-faith actors. This is about being fair to all. Do you think that a fair way of reassuring female prisoners would be for the bill to be amended to ensure that the GRC is not effective in prison allocations?

I have one more follow-up question. You said that a GRC, if declared, would be a consideration. Would you take other things into account alongside that, or would you just look at the GRC?

I asked witnesses who attended the committee a while back a question about an Asian female going to a doctor. My mum, for example, would normally see whether the doctor was a man or a woman, or she would ask, but if people do not know, they would just see a female. Sandy Brindley was right; sometimes, it is all about appearance, whether that is right or wrong. My mum is an older lady and does not know any better—she would just see what it was. Is it up to the doctor to say what they are? What if that breaks the faith of someone who is Muslim or Indian, which says that they cannot be touched by somebody who is trans, because the religion does not understand it? It is not that the religion does not accept it—it is just not understood. How do you work around those religious groups?

I am sorry—I probably need to make my question clearer. If a woman going to a doctor can see that the doctor is either male or female, they will be fine—I am just using my mum’s analysis here when she goes in. However, what if the doctor was trans and they knew that they were seeing an Asian woman? Would that trans person be able to say that they are trans? When I asked that question, I was told that it would not be up to them to say so. That means that the Asian woman would not know that the doctor was trans, and religious people would not understand that. There needs to be a bit more awareness of the issue, so that people understand it and everybody can get that service.

I just think that that situation would break the woman’s religion. I am sorry, convener, but I need to break this down, because it is important. If a trans person who was male before and is now trans examined that Muslim lady, but the lady did not know that, that would break her religion, because her religion states that only a female can examine her.

Thank you, Susan. It does break your religion—I can tell you that. It breaks your religion completely, because women would not be allowed to be seen by a doctor of the male sex at all—or by a trans person, although whether we could be seen by a trans doctor is not actually in any of our scriptures. Therefore, it is good that you have covered that. It is something that people have been asking about. Lucy, do you have any views on that?

I thank the panel members for their opening statements and their written evidence. I will touch on something that youse have all mentioned, which is single-sex spaces. Two weeks ago, we heard from the EHRC that individuals who acquire a GRC can access single-sex spaces for women and girls such as toilets, changing rooms, refuges, hospital wards and many more places. We also heard that the exclusion of such individuals with a GRC would be direct discrimination, which would have to be subject to justification.

Opponents of the bill have expressed concern—we have also heard concern from today’s witnesses—that self-declaration will open up the process to abuse from bad-faith actors. Malcolm Clark gave a good example when he talked about the 6 foot 2 person. What concerns do the rest of you have? Will you go into a bit more detail about what the provisions could mean? What are your concerns about people who access single-sex spaces?

I have a supplementary question on that, before I come back to Lucy Hunter Blackburn. I want to talk a bit about religion. You just mentioned carers. There is an issue that deeply concerns me as someone from an Indian religion. I will have to word this in the right way in order not to offend anybody here. For example, if my mother goes to the doctor, she will ask for a woman. She is old-fashioned—she does not know any different. She will ask for a woman doctor. If she did not ask, she might get a doctor who was trans and she would not know, which would break a lot of religions, especially the Muslim religion. Many Muslims and Indians have voiced questions to me about what the position would be with regard to single-sex spaces. Do we change our religions in that case? What are your feelings about that, Susan?

I am talking about any public toilets or any public space.