Seòmar agus comataidhean

Good morning, cabinet secretary. Of those who responded to the short survey, 59 per cent were not in favour of the proposed reforms. I have also received numerous pieces of correspondence from individuals who feel that their views have not been represented or heard. This committee’s members and, particularly, clerks, have had to make last-ditch attempts to secure witnesses in order to ensure that the scrutiny of the bill is more balanced. They have had to include last-minute private evidence sessions, outwith parliamentary time, to ensure that those who are affected by the bill will be heard from. We have received a large number of additional written submissions in a short period of time and there simply has not been enough time to scrutinise such an important bill.

Cabinet secretary, do you agree that stage 1 has been rushed through and that those who are affected by the bill—as well as the committee members and democracy more generally—would benefit from a more thorough approach and longer timescales for the evidence sessions? Do you believe that it would be beneficial to delay stage 1 of the bill?

Thank you for your response, cabinet secretary. I have two points to make on that. I will go back to your predecessor in a minute but, with regard to what you said about us having had lengthy consultation and about people being heard, I am not the only member of this committee who has been receiving emails about this matter. Why do you think that people are saying that they have not been heard?

My experience is that the process has been very tiring. Last week, three sessions were crammed into one week and, this week, there are two sessions. Cabinet secretary, what would you say to people who are listening to this meeting and feel that they have not been heard? This bill is now at the end of stage 1, so it is going through.

Thank you for that response, cabinet secretary. You mentioned your predecessor, Shirley-Anne Somerville. She announced a delay in June 2019, in order to take account of additional issues that had been raised since the consultation, and sought to build consensus on the way forward. Why did the Scottish Government only agree to hold meetings with those who oppose the bill between January and March 2022, when, arguably, it was too late to influence policy?

In addition, what have you taken forward in response to points or concerns that were raised about that section of the bill?

I have another question—

Thank you, Senator Doherty.

Thank you for that, Senator Doherty. You are absolutely correct that everybody—whether they are a trans person or they come from a religious background—has that right, but how can we impose such things upon people who follow certain religions? You probably heard my example that involved a woman going to a doctor. How does that work? You said that that situation has not come up in Ireland yet, but would you also consider that when you look at gender equality stuff? We will consider those things, and we have heard from witnesses with different views. We need to ensure that we have a fair playing field for everybody to access services and spaces.

We have talked a little about the example of people using changing spaces, so you are aware of that. I will watch my wording, but another example is that, if a woman of colour—perhaps someone who is Indian—or a Muslim woman goes to a doctor, asks for a smear test, for example, asks for a female doctor and the doctor is a trans female, the patient would not know, and it is not up to the trans person to tell the patient who they are, because that is their right, which is understandable. It would break the religion of that female if she later found out that the doctor was trans, but she would not have had the opportunity to know, because the trans person has the right to privacy. However, the person with the religious belief also has the right to know who they are being treated by.

It would be good if you could tell us how we can reach a happy medium in which we respect both sides and come out with a balanced view that can help services to be delivered.

Thank you for being so honest about that, Senator Doherty. In looking at our bill now, we have a good opportunity to look at those areas.

I want to go back to what my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy spoke about in relation to the work that you did with groups around accessing services and single-sex spaces, and to touch on women of faith. You have probably been following our committee’s work. People have raised that issue with me personally, and it has also been brought up in the committee. How did you go about addressing that issue in your 2015 act? Did religious groups and women of faith raise that issue of accessing services and single-sex spaces? Did you come across that in any of the work that you did?

Thank you very much, Senator Doherty. I have one last point, on the back of my colleague Fulton MacGregor speaking about age. Perhaps you could elaborate on that.

You know that we are looking at changing the age for a GRC from 18 to 16 years old. We have heard from many people on that—some are for and some are against. On the one hand, there is the fact that, at 16 or 17, someone can go ahead and get married, and they can vote. On the other hand, people have concerns because they feel that those people are not yet adults who are able to make such decisions. At that age, people cannot get a credit card, for example—certain things cannot happen in their life.

What is your view on balance in that regard, if we go down to 16? I know that, in your legislation, that age cohort requires both parental consent and medical evidence in order to be granted the court order that is required. Perhaps you can touch on that a little bit.

Good afternoon, Senator Doherty. The committee has covered quite a lot already. I will try to discuss an area that has not been covered, and I will go back to some areas to seek more clarity.

My colleague Rachael Hamilton spoke about data collection in relation to health and justice. I want to talk a bit about data collection on the basis of gender as opposed to sex and the potential impact on equality measures such as the gender pay gap. Did the introduction of a self-identification policy result in similar concerns? Do you share any of those concerns? Are you aware of the policy in Ireland having an effect on any other data collection policies?

I know that you covered justice and health a little when my colleague asked about them. My question is more about the gender pay gap, because some of our witnesses have talked about that. I would like to hear a little about your concerns and your thoughts on how you tackled that area.