Seòmar agus comataidhean

Good morning. In the evidence sessions over the past couple of weeks, this committee has heard real-life examples of deaf people struggling, especially in rural areas. Those examples, particularly the ones that we heard in the private session, have been harrowing. Lucy Clark, who is a deaf survivor of domestic abuse, told the committee that there were only three BSL-trained domestic abuse advocates, all based in Dundee. How would a deaf woman who has been domestically abused in Argyll and Bute get the support she needs? I would like Professor Kusters and Dr Adam to respond to that.

At present, that data is not collected when crimes are reported to Police Scotland. Certain data is collected, such as the person’s name and some other details, but details of ethnicity and disability are not collected. That is why my bill seeks to require that data. Thank you for shedding light on the importance of those three points.

The committee has also heard that deaf people are faced with barriers in relation to the issue of poor mental health. Mental health services for people with full hearing are already strained and experience regular budget cuts, and those services are further stretched in rural areas. Imagine how bad they are for deaf people in those areas. In addition, with regard to education, some pupils may have to move to different schools or different areas entirely, or even pay for private tuition. How might consistency in the BSL plans be improved across Scotland?

Thank you for that, Deputy First Minister. The people who we heard from said that school teachers should be qualified to level 3 in BSL and that there are opportunities for more deaf or deafblind people to teach or help in the system. Those may be things for you to look at.

Two weeks ago, the committee heard from Lucy Clark, who is a deaf survivor of domestic abuse. She said that there are only three BSL-trained domestic abuse advocates in Scotland, all of whom are based in Dundee. Lucy said that finding an interpreter is always at the forefront of a deaf woman’s mind and that many interpreters find it challenging to cover areas of domestic abuse. Deaf women already face so many day-to-day challenges and it is even more harrowing to know that, when a woman needs support the most, it is not there. What is being done to help women such as Lucy?

Thank you. Lucy Clark also highlighted that many deaf women who experience domestic abuse assume that it is normal behaviour and do not even know what consent means. While working on my Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill, I came across a woman who had slurred speech, and she said that her abuser had told the police and the authorities that she was drunk, which meant that she was not taken seriously.

Data collection is key to having a clear picture of which communities are more likely to be affected by domestic abuse. That is why my bill seeks to place a requirement on authorities to collect data such as age, sex, disability and ethnicity. Do you have the figures to hand on the percentage of deaf women who are survivors of domestic abuse? Do you agree that accurate data collection is key to understanding which communities are most likely to be affected by it?

Good morning. Thank you for the information that you have provided so far.

Over the past two weeks, witnesses have called for financial eligibility criteria to be expanded. Financial thresholds have not been updated in line with inflation since 2011, which was 14 years ago. Modelling from SLAB shows that eligibility for civil legal assistance has decreased and that that might be becoming a barrier in relation to advice and assistance. At the same time, people who are eligible for legal aid struggle to find solicitors who will take up their cases. Over the past two weeks, the committee has heard evidence that echoes that picture.

Although the Minister for Equalities told the Social Justice and Social Security Committee that legal aid needs to be reformed, nothing has happened. Is the Scottish Government failing the most vulnerable in our society? What more needs to be done?

Thank you for clarifying that.

Good morning. My questions will be a bit long, because I have been pulling together some things that our witnesses have told us over the past two weeks, so please ask me to repeat anything after I have asked my question.

Witnesses have called for financial eligibility criteria to be expanded, as financial thresholds have not been uprated in line with inflation since 2011. That is 14 years ago—nearly a decade and a half. Some witnesses said that those outdated financial thresholds are not fit for purpose in this decade. Andy Sirel of JustRight Scotland said:

“if you have £1,718 in your bank account, you are not getting legal aid.”—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 13 May 2025; c 18.]

In the previous session today, we heard concerns about that from Colin Lancaster of the Scottish Legal Aid Board. Last week, Dr Ben Christman of the Environmental Rights Centre for Scotland said that someone over the age of 21 who was working for the national minimum wage for more than 20 hours per week was not eligible for advice and assistance, as the current weekly disposable income threshold is £245 per week. He even referred—as Colin Lancaster did today—to a scenario in which people in receipt of universal credit were not eligible for advice and assistance. However, some legal cases can cost up to £500,000.

If someone on universal credit cannot get legal aid, who is legal aid for? If we cannot even help the people in our society who most need it, can you clarify whom we are actually helping, minister?

Thank you—I ask you to please look at that in your reform, because the issue has been brought up in evidence for the past two weeks. People have such a low amount of money, but they do not get advice and assistance. Please look at that, minister.

Over the past few weeks, the committee has taken evidence on how legal aid is administered for survivors of domestic abuse. Two weeks ago, Andy Sirel of JustRight Scotland highlighted that a survivor of domestic abuse can sometimes go to between 30 and 50 law firms before they can get a solicitor. As if those figures are not horrendous enough, we also heard about a woman in a divorce case who had been attacked by her husband and had to contact 116 firms.

Last week, Dr Marsha Scott of Scottish Women’s Aid said:

“we are no closer to ... reform now than we were”

in 2017. She also said that the current model

“is not fit for purpose”

as

“It chops ... lives ... into little bits.—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 20 May 2025; c 5.]

The lives of those women, and in many cases of their children, are at stake. The situation is so bad that even the United Nations Human Rights Committee pointed out that it was

“concerned about the depletion of legal aid lawyers”

across the United Kingdom, but in particular in Scotland.

Minister, as you will probably be very much aware, it is a big first step for survivors even to contact a solicitor; we know that many survivors do not do that. We are talking about someone having to call 116 firms. I ask you to imagine a survivor picking up the phone and saying, “I need help,” once, twice, three times, and then 116 times. That is not good enough. You, as the Minister for Victims and Community Safety, and the Scottish Government cannot keep dragging your feet on this. It is so important that those women are treated with dignity and respect.

I really hope that the reform that you have mentioned takes all that into consideration, because it is happening on the ground. As you know, through my Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill, I have had the opportunity to speak to many survivors, so I know that it is a big issue.

Thank you, Marie-Louise, that is really helpful. My next question is on means testing. Witnesses who attended the committee over the past two weeks called for the removal of financial eligibility requirements for certain types of cases where domestic abuse is a factor. Survivors of domestic abuse, the majority of whom are women, are some of the most vulnerable members of our society. That is an area that I know extremely well, because I introduced the Prevention of Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill. Many of the survivors whom I have spoken to have told me how their abusers controlled their finances—many of those women do not even know what their household incomes are.

Last week, we heard that legal aid for housing cases in England is not means tested. Do you agree that we should take that as an example and apply it to legal aid for domestic abuse cases in Scotland? Marie-Louise, you mentioned carrying out a consultation on means testing. What work have you done in that area? When will the information from that consultation be available to you?