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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 3 August 2025
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Displaying 760 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

You said that further work is needed on the drivers. Is that work being done?

I also want to touch on race, and the fact that people of colour—women, especially—are more disadvantaged in terms of the gender pay gap. Can you say anything about that? You said that work needs to be done in general, but is any work being done in that area?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Can I probe into that? If a lesbian group excludes trans women, would you say that it is not compliant with the Equality Act 2010?

11:00  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you. You talked about guidance. Is the law clear on that? I am considering what is happening out there—obviously without talking about a specific case. Is it clear that your guidance states what it states and that the people and organisations that provide services must comply with it, or are there grey areas on which people out there are not getting compliance right?

There are many organisations that make a lot of decisions on their own heads. Those are not collective decisions and they are not decisions that are based on policy or regulation—they are making their own decisions within their own organisations. How can a bit more clarity be provided? How can you give guidance so that people know exactly where they stand when no single-sex spaces or services are provided?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Good morning, minister and officials. Thank you for the information that you have provided so far.

Last week, we heard from Jatin Haria from the Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights. When it comes to reporting on the gender pay gap, he said:

“the numbers are stark enough to suggest that somebody is not doing their job.”—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 11 March 2025; c 15.]

When I asked him to go into more detail, he said that this extends to both the Scottish Government and the EHRC. I said that I would ask the Scottish Government about it, knowing that you were coming in today, minister. How do you respond to the comment that the Scottish Government is not doing its job?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

You will be glad to know that I have only two more questions.

The Scottish Prison Service policy for the management of transgender people in custody allows for some men and trans identities to be housed in the women’s estate. That includes violent men, providing they do not have a known record of violence against women. In its equality and human rights impact assessment, the SPS says that it is public sector equality duty compliant. Is the Scottish Government confident that the SPS is PSED compliant?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Please do discuss them, because the situation right now is not very fair for women and girls out there. They do not have their dignity, respect or fairness right now, because they have to share single-sex spaces and services in many places. I hope that the Government will provide some clarity on this issue.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Good morning, and thank you for the information that you have provided so far.

John Wilkes, last week we heard from Jatin Haria from the Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights. On the issue of reporting on the gender pay gap for women, he said:

“the numbers are stark enough to suggest that somebody is not doing their job.”—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 11 March 2025; c 15.]

When I asked him to go into more detail, he said that the issue extends to the Scottish Government and the Equality and Human Rights Commission. What is your response to that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Thank you for providing clarity. There is fear about how people are interpreting the law for their organisations and fear that many more legal cases will be spurred on, because people are unclear about what should be done. As a member of the Parliament, I can see that people are unclear, so it was important that I asked you the question about how the EHRC perceives the issue, which is about how people are interpreting the law. You have guidance, which, I take it, any organisation can approach you for. Your doors are open, which is a good thing.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

We live in hope.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Dr Pam Gosal MBE

Last week, I asked a witness from Engender whether

“lesbian clubs and associations with 25 or more members should be able to exclude all males, including those with gender recognition certificates”.—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 11 March 2025; c 28.]

She said that she could not comment on the issue. Is the EHRC able to comment on it?