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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 12 May 2025
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Displaying 1008 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 December 2022

Paul O'Kane

If we take as read what you have just said—if we take you at your word—why have you not spelled out in the bill that your intention is that the care boards will be providers of last resort, or that they might put in place specialist provision, which you referred to? Will you expand on that? I presume that you perhaps mean specialist learning disability services or something like that.

Why have you not spelled out in the bill what you have just said, in order to give confidence to people who are clearly very anxious? In evidence, we heard from trade unions, local authorities and front-line staff that there is anxiety, not least about the potential implications of TUPE for pensions and so on. I appreciate that you have written to the committee in that regard, but if we are dispelling people’s anxiety, do you want to take the opportunity to clear up some of those issues?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Paul O'Kane

Good morning, panel. The first section in our briefing paper for the meeting is titled “General hopes and fears”. That is a broad theme, but I am keen to understand the concerns that people might have about how the bill has been structured and came to be.

Over our evidence sessions, we have heard significant concern about the bill being a piece of framework legislation and the detail being co-designed after the bill has been passed. I will quote Tanith Muller, chair of the Neurological Alliance of Scotland, who said:

“Scotland is being offered a new structure for care—but without blueprints, a schedule or a budget. We can’t tell if it will even stand up, much less that it will meet the care needs of people in Scotland. Ministers need to go back to the drawing board and show us all the plans that they have developed with people before they ask MSPs to legislate.”

I know that MND Scotland is a member of the Neurological Alliance, so I ask Susan Webster whether she shares some of those concerns, and to say what could have been done differently.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Paul O'Kane

Susan, you have pre-empted my next question, which is on the consensus that came out of the Feeley review. Given the nature of a condition such as MND, would you have preferred to see more action being taken more quickly on some of the issues that were raised in the review, particularly on the workforce, non-residential care charges and support for people and their families?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Paul O'Kane

Should there have been more co-design before the bill was introduced? What co-design would you like to see included in secondary legislation?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Paul O'Kane

I wonder whether I can briefly pivot to Cathie Russell on that question. She mentioned the Feeley review. Are there things that could be done now, outwith the bill, that would make a difference?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Paul O'Kane

Of course.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Paul O'Kane

Thank you; that is very helpful.

I move on to talk about the whole concept of care boards. Do you feel that there is still too little detail around what they will do and what their composition will be, including who will have the voting rights in them? I go to Dr Manji first.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Paul O'Kane

My question is this: if, for example, Mr and Mrs Smith decide to make a representation to an elected member, where does that responsibility sit most effectively and appropriately? I take your point, but I wonder about that more local focus.

Convener, if I may, I would like to move on to the points that Age Scotland made in its submission about aspects of the Feeley report that the bill does not cover. Adam, you alluded to the financial memorandum not correlating with what is in the bill. Are you concerned that things are being missed because they are not in the bill? I am referring to things such as free personal nursing care rates, the removal of non-residential care charging and the terms and conditions of social care staff. Should they have been in the bill in the first place?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Paul O'Kane

My next question, which is for Elinor Jayne, is on a broadly similar theme. Obviously, the scope of what is proposed has extended beyond what was in the Feeley report, and we have heard suggestions that elements of social work could go into the national care service. How would SHAAP feel about that, given the strong links between social work and support for those with problematic alcohol and drug use?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Paul O'Kane

Given your mention of resources, are you concerned about the resourcing of the national care service, given the Finance and Public Administration Committee’s concerns about the total cost as well as the concerns that have been expressed about the Scottish Government’s budget, which we will hear about later in the week?