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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 4 November 2025
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Displaying 1011 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

I am sorry to interrupt, but we are short of time. What is the formal status of the DEFRA guidance? What approach will the courts take? Is this the strongest way to embed provisions in law? Perhaps your official will want to comment on that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

Today’s debate has highlighted the urgent need for the dangerous dogs legislation to be updated. I know that the Scottish Government has done work on that, and I hope that a bill will be introduced sooner rather than later, because dog attacks in Scotland have risen by 80 per cent in the past decade. Even in the past year, dog attacks on postal workers have increased by 15 per cent.

How I will vote today will be determined by the attacks that have taken place recently, some of which have been horrific. I will vote against the motion, not because I think that the statutory instrument that is before us is well drafted or represents the solution, but because I think that it will address some of the problem. I therefore feel that I have no choice other than to support it, for community safety reasons.

I hope that the point that Christine Grahame made so powerfully about the quality of the legislation that we pass is taken on board by the Scottish Parliament, because it is one that is made repeatedly. From what the minister has said, I understand that the provisions have been defined in the way that they have simply to mirror the approach that is being taken down south. I question whether that is the right approach. However, that is what is in the statutory instrument that we have in front of us. We cannot amend it. If we reject it, it will be some time before more proposals come back. On that basis, I feel that I have to support the Scottish Government position today.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

On the timetable, the order will come into effect on 23 February if it is passed, but, from 1 August, it would be an offence to own an XL bully dog. Will you clarify the timetable for when law-abiding citizens would be guilty of an offence? When would that impact?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

I think that you have covered it.

The minister said that the definition is on the UK Government website, but can you refer me to any definitions in relation to younger dogs? That has been a live issue down south.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

I understand that we have to look at a UK website for the definition that will come into effect later this week.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

It will be on the Scottish Government website. Will any guidance regarding young dogs be in place later this week so that the owners—citizens—can know what they are supposed to do, or do we have to wait for that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

My question relates to the formal status of the DEFRA guidance, which is of course not referred to in the order. As Christine Grahame said, good law is clear law. We can expect that, in the criminal courts, defence agents will dispute whether a particular dog is an XL bully and will argue that it is not. Christine Grahame mentioned DNA testing. Can you confirm what the formal status of the DEFRA guidance is? Is the intention to continue to rely on guidance of that nature once the second SSI comes forward or will something more substantial be put together? How will that be clarified in relation to how the courts will interpret the legislation?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Katy Clark

England is obviously ahead of us. Do you know whether any cases have been taken through as yet?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

Given everything that Pauline McNeill said about previous experience, cabinet secretary, do you not accept that we need clarity in the black letter of the law? It does not matter what politicians’ intentions are, and it does not matter what assurances or correspondence there is with the committee—what matters is what the law will be.

If you are going to set up a separate court, there need to be clear rights. The alternative would have been to have specialist divisions of the sheriff court and the High Court and many people would argue for that. They could work differently from the way things are at the moment, with their own rules of court. However, you have chosen this pathway, so you must surely accept that there must be absolute clarity in the black letter of the law that the rights of those involved will not in any way be reduced. Does the cabinet secretary accept that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

I am quite happy to have a yes or no answer. What do you see as success and failure?