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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 May 2025
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Displaying 1673 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Russell Findlay

“Brief questions” is my middle name, convener.

Good morning, cabinet secretary. The not proven verdict is likely to be on its way out, but part 4 also deals with jury sizes, as we have heard. In reducing the number of jurors from 15 to 12, we will require eight out of the 12 to reach a guilty verdict, as we have also heard. That would be inconsistent with just about every comparable jurisdiction worldwide, which requires either unanimity or 10 or 11 out of 12.

We have received a comment from the Faculty of Advocates that that would be

“an international communication that Scotland places less value on protecting its citizens accused of crime than any and every other nation with a jury system.”

More surprisingly, perhaps, Professors Fiona Leverick and Eamon Keane told us that they oppose the eight out of 12 jurors proposition in the bill. I struggle to understand why the Scottish Government wants to get rid of one international anomaly—the not proven verdict—and, in effect, replace it with another, which is the two-thirds majority in a jury of 12.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Russell Findlay

I know that we have moved on from the previous part of the bill, but I found Alastair Bowden's testimony to be quite staggering in respect of his explanation for not having data on how juries are split. The bill that is in front of us will fundamentally alter juries, yet we do not know anything about how they have previously been split, and the Government’s rationale appears to be that we do not need to know what were called the fine-grained details, and that the public and the media perhaps cannot be trusted to know. Katy Clark’s questions yielded a further question: even if that is the case, why on earth can researchers not get that basic information? I find it mind blowing that we are being asked to radically alter jury sizes and jury ratios when no one in the criminal justice system has sought that information.

10:45  

I have one question about part 5 of the bill with regard to trauma-informed practice. I know that the issue is central to part 2, but it also features under the provisions in relation to the sexual offences court in part 5. In evidence to the committee last November, NHS Education for Scotland said that its five-part definition of being trauma informed was not being used in the bill. Two parts of its five-part definition had been omitted, and it said that that might hinder the effective implementation of the bill’s other elements. Cabinet secretary, when I asked you whether you would consider its request to think again on that, you said that your door was always open. Has NES been through your open door? Have you agreed to its request for the five-part definition to be part of the bill, or have you now ruled that out?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Russell Findlay

Are there timescales attached to that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Russell Findlay

Sure, but if you, as the Government, want to change your own bill, you will surely have to get on with it before then.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Russell Findlay

It has been about three months since NES raised the issue in a written submission to the committee. I put it to you then and we are now three months down the line.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Russell Findlay

I am just wondering whether it is on or off the table.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Russell Findlay

It was in evidence that we heard yesterday.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Russell Findlay

I would not expect you to.

In my previous question, I slightly conflated non-jury trials with the sexual offences court. Will accused people be compelled to take part in the juryless rape trial pilot, or will they be given a right to object or not take part?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Russell Findlay

The position is that no accused and, indeed, no complainer can choose their court, whether they are taking part in the pilot or not, and yet we heard from rape victims who—perhaps to some people’s surprise—said that they would have preferred, and did prefer, having a jury. In that case, given the trauma-informed ethos of the entire legislation, would their views be taken into account?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Russell Findlay

No, she was not. She agrees with the bill’s provision, which is a two-thirds majority.