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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 May 2025
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Displaying 1673 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Was there a conversation about that between Unison and the Government prior to publication of the bill?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Does that not bring us back to the point about complaints going unresolved? The person presumably cannot be penalised by a new employer, because the complaint dies upon their exit from service.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Okay. Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I will start with Dr Lennon and pick up on something that you have already referred to, which was about the proposed code of ethics. You said in your written submission—and in your verbal contribution—that, for the code to be effective, it should be monitored. You used Northern Ireland as an example of where it happens effectively and suggested that the Scottish Police Authority could do the same, but you also say that it could be achieved by amending existing legislation, specifically the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012. In layman’s terms, why is this so important and why is it needed? Have you had any discussions with or feedback from the Scottish Government since your written evidence was submitted and published?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Thank you.

Stephanie Griffin, I will ask you about the duty of candour provision in the bill. We have written evidence from the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents that suggests that the duty of candour provision might be at odds with existing legislation that gives everyone the right to silence or to protect themselves against self-incrimination. I think that the Scottish Police Federation has said something similar to us. Are you aware of a likely clash between those two rights, or is that likelihood overstated?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

We have seen cases already in the public domain that have cost huge sums of money to settle and, according to the officers involved, that was needless. They wanted a resolution and it could have been happened much more quickly and efficiently. A report that HMICS produced in December 2023 says:

“Misconduct and grievance processes are perceived as lacking openness, transparency, fairness and pace of resolution. There was a general lack of trust in these processes, and we found they are having a direct and often damaging short and longer term impact on individuals and teams”.

That pretty much reflects what you have just acknowledged. Would any part of the bill support your members who find themselves in that position?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Thank you.

Kate Wallace, I will turn to you now. I want to quickly touch on a very brief selection of comments from some of the witnesses we have heard from so far. Stephanie Bonner, the mother of a child who died, called the complaints process

“a hellish merry-go-round of distractions, deceit, deception and manipulation”.

Maggie Robertson, who was a victim of rape, has said

“the system needs to be changed completely.”

Bill Johnstone, who was falsely assigned a criminal record, said:

“The system is ... not fit for purpose”

and

“fatally flawed.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 17 April 2024; c 2, 25, 12.]

Margaret Gribbon, a lawyer who represents police whistleblowers, talked of

“weaponisation of the complaints handling procedure.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 24 April 2024; c 4.]

I suppose that many of those people represent different definitions of victim. From the perspective of VSS, can you give us an idea of what kinds of cases you typically see relating to police negligence, misconduct and criminality and say how they might be relevant to the need for this legislation?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Would an easy fix be to amend the bill to preclude civilian staff?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Are you actively lobbying the Government on that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Based on that estimate, you are thinking of five times £5.8 million, potentially?