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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 May 2025
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Displaying 1673 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

One issue that is a bit of an elephant in the room is the potential cost of the legislation. The initial financial memorandum put the figure at £1.4 million or thereabouts. The latest figure from the Scottish Government is approximately £5.8 million, which is more than 300 per cent higher. Yesterday, the convener of the Finance and Public Administration Committee, who is a Scottish National Party MSP, said that the Scottish Government knowingly presented to the finance committee

“figures that it knew were completely inaccurate”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 7 May 2024; c 52.]

The SNP justice secretary denied the charge but, clearly, it is of significant concern. Do any of you have any insight into whether that £5.8 million is realistic, whether it is likely to go higher and what it might mean for policing generally?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

There have been quite high-profile cases in which what we are talking about has happened. It is a matter of public record that two Police Scotland chief constables left while subject to quite serious complaints that were unresolved, and ended up getting jobs in policing elsewhere in the UK.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Okay. It is not really the official view of the umbrella body that you represent.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

David Malcolm, would you like to respond?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Mr Kennedy, you represent the vast majority of police officers in Scotland, who act with the utmost integrity, professionalism and bravery. Just this week, we saw that bravery played out across the media in an incident in Paisley. However, we have also heard evidence from police whistleblowers—police witnesses—that the existing complaints system badly fails them when they have cause to raise concerns. Do you accept that the existing system falls short in that regard?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I have heard of examples of domestic abuse victims suffering from their encounter with the police. Is that the type of thing that you are talking about?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

It is a very broad range, yes. Thank you, I will not take up any more time.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I am more interested in the specifics of the enforcement and monitoring. Is that perhaps quite an unusual way of ensuring that the code is monitored? Could the legislation that we are looking at not be amended to do it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Does that sometimes put the federation in a bit of a bind? If it is a blue-on-blue complaint, when an officer may be a whistleblower of some sort, the complaint will often be about other officers. Do you find that a bit of a conflict to deal with?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Sticking with costs and specific to your evidence, Mr Malcolm, you said that the proposal for civilian employees to come under the duty of ethics and fundamentally change their employment status would interfere with their existing employment rights. They would become a regulated workforce in the same way as police officers. Your written submission made a useful comparison, saying that you would not treat non-medical National Health Service staff as you would treat doctors and nurses. The last line caught my eye. It says:

“Should any change of status be imposed, remedying such disparities would be a matter of urgency for Unison.”

Reading between the lines, that sounds expensive. It sounds as though Unison would bang down the door of the SPA saying, “Each and every one of our members who is subject to these new regulations deserves a pay rise.” Is that what that means?