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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 May 2025
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Displaying 1673 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I would like a quick clarification on something that Mr Speirs said about numbers of cases. I think that he said that the PIRC had found that 70 per cent or so had been handled satisfactorily by Police Scotland. That means that 30 per cent had not. He described that as a small number. However, three out of 10 being handled badly is not a good rate, is it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

As Lady Elish said, both the previous chief constable and the new chief constable have said that Police Scotland considers itself to be institutionally racist, sexist and discriminatory, and much of what the bill does attempts to address that. Does the SPA see itself—and would it categorise itself—the same way?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

We have heard evidence from former police officers and members of the public of a lack of trust in Police Scotland on some occasions, and the SPA and Police Scotland work closely together, so it is not as though you are casually bandying information around with third parties, so I wonder whether it might be better that the lists are the responsibility of the Scottish Police Authority, as proposed in the bill.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

The bill also proposes a duty of candour, which the SPA supports. However, from its submission, it is not clear whether the SPA supports the off-duty duty of candour, which is not in the bill. The submission suggests that you might support that. Can you clarify that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Good morning, panel. It is still morning—there are four minutes to go.

The bill comes with a financial memorandum, which initially gave costs of £1.4 million. The costs are now in the region of £5.8 million, with updated figures from Police Scotland. The Scottish Police Federation said that it will cost many multiples of even that later figure. Do you agree with the SPF’s assessment? Do you have more up-to-date figures, or are they constantly evolving as the bill progresses?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I have perhaps misunderstood the written submission. Are you saying that the public interest test would apply only in cases after the 12-month period had elapsed, if a matter arose, or would it also apply in any case within the 12-month window?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

The witnesses whom we have heard from, some of whom have been whistleblowers, have experienced what has been described as a “weaponisation” of the process—it has been turned against them. We questioned the Scottish Police Federation a couple of weeks ago, and it has issues with the bill. It acknowledged that it was a problem that some of their members were suffering due to attempting to blow the whistle.

Without getting bogged down in the legislation, which you have not had a chance to properly scrutinise, I wonder whether, having spoken to witnesses, you have seen any evidence of a change in culture in Police Scotland in that regard.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

There was an example of that in Scotland recently, with Police Scotland reaching a settlement with a female officer from Moray, in the north of Scotland. She had attempted to report bullying and, indeed, criminality, but she found that others turned against her and her life was made a misery. It took many years.

I suppose that I am answering my own question in that the bill can attempt to remedy it, but the culture needs strong leadership.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Absolutely.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Absolutely.

One of your recommendations is for gross misconduct hearings for officers of all ranks to be held in public. The version in the bill covers officers of senior rank only. In its evidence, the Scottish Police Federation described such hearings as being “like a public flogging”. The Association of Scottish Police Superintendents said that it was like putting officers “in the stocks”. The ASPS also expressed concerns about the sensitivity of personal information. What would your response be to those concerns?