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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 May 2025
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Displaying 1673 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Sorry, what does the number 140 relate to?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Section 6 of the bill will allow for the continuation of gross misconduct proceedings once an officer retires or resigns. In response to that, your submission says that, when that happens, it should be subject to a public interest test, which obviously makes sense—it should not be so prescriptive as to require every case to be pursued when there may be good reasons not to do so. Could you offer a definition of what that public interest test might look like, and whether it should be set out in the bill? Does the bill need to be amended so that it is clearer about what sets of circumstances the provision might apply to?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Good morning, panel. Much of the SPA’s position seems to be supportive of the PIRC getting new powers and even taking on some of the responsibilities that currently lie with the SPA. However, the PIRC has told us that it cannot—it is unable to, or perhaps it does not want to—take on some of those powers I will not bog you down with the specifics. I am sure—I hope—that you are across some of the PIRC’s evidence.

For example, in your responses to sections 11, 12 and 13 of the call for views, I see that you have suggested that the PIRC should take things on.

In the rather unusual set of circumstances in which two bodies are apparently trying to give away or not take powers, are you talking directly with the PIRC, or do you hope that the problem will be resolved through the legislative process?

10:15  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

[Inaudible.]—blaming Westminster legislation for 10 years of hell in the police complaints process, you know.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

A similar theme arises in respect of the proposed police barred and advisory lists. The bill proposes that those would be managed by the SPA. The SPA’s position is that Police Scotland would be better served taking those on, and Police Scotland has told us the same. Does that not perhaps go the other way and risk giving the public the perception that the police are controlling the lists? Is that a good thing? What is your thinking behind why it should be done the way in which you propose?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Those sorts of issues are, quite suddenly, taking up a huge amount of the PIRC’s time. Uniquely, Police Scotland does not have body cameras as standard issue, although that is going to be announced very soon by the Scottish Government. Do you believe—or hope—that that will result in a reduction in the number of complaints in general, but also of those of assault? It seems logical that it would, but I do not want to put words in your mouth.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

We have also taken evidence from a solicitor called Margaret Gribbon, who has acted on behalf of a number of police officers, some of whom are female. The cases, which are in the public domain already, were protracted and resulted in huge financial pay-outs. Careers were destroyed and, in some cases, health was impacted. Margaret Gribbon said to us:

“I am afraid to say that nothing that I have seen has convinced me that there has been sufficient change since the Rhona Malone”—

Rhona Malone was one of her cases—

“judgment. It is inevitable that there is going to be another case or cases of that type.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 24 April 2024; c 3.]

People who are, and have been, involved for many years in seeing the worst excesses of the system are not confident, given what has gone on previously. Can you reassure them? What in the bill specifically will persuade people that that situation will be fixed?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I have an extension to the question about procedures and what is happening now that perhaps did not used to happen. One thing that we have learned is that, since 21 October, any allegation of assault is automatically reported to the PIRC. Does that include minor offences, such as the classic tightened-handcuff allegation? Would that count as an alleged assault?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Russell Findlay

That leads me directly to the next question. We have heard evidence from people, whether police officers or members of the public, that complaints that they have made have been miscategorised, in their opinion. There have been examples of criminal allegations not being reported to CAAPD, as they should have been, to the extent that Police Scotland’s website now advises people that they can report directly to CAAPD. As the head of the professional standards department—I do not know how long you have been in post—can you say whether those problems have been fixed? If not, are you confident that the bill will do that?