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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 May 2025
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Displaying 1673 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Russell Findlay

I will quickly summarise what you have said about Kilmarnock prison. It is being transferred into public ownership. Currently, it is very well run. You believe that the decision was ideological.

Earlier this year, I had a conversation with some prison officers who represent staff at Kilmarnock. They said that it costs in the region of £20,000 per annum to keep a prisoner there, whereas it costs about £38,000 to keep a prisoner in the public estate. They also said that Serco had offered to build a 300-bed replacement facility as part of a continuation of the contract, but the Government rejected that. They could not understand the logic behind that.

Is the deal done, or is there any way of going back on it or revisiting it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Russell Findlay

You have referred to Audit Scotland and the cost of the transfer. Aside from staff wages, one cost that has been overlooked is pension costs. Are you able to quantify that in any way? Have you spoken to Audit Scotland directly about that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Russell Findlay

This is probably impossible, but can you provide a figure?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Russell Findlay

Yes, that is the four-year total.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Russell Findlay

Yes. Given the financial pressures that would come with even the most optimistic projection and given the backlog that already exists, has there been any discussion between the court service and the Crown about dealing with the summary cases more efficiently with non-court disposals, which is a direction of travel in the justice system anyway? Specifically in light of the budget pressures, has that been talked about? Both of you can answer that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Russell Findlay

From that answer, it sounds as if there is not an active discussion about a change of policy or suchlike.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Russell Findlay

Going back to focus on summary cases, you have spoken, Mr McQueen, about the fact that one in 10 police officers cited for summary cases do not give evidence. That is a monumental waste of their time. It takes them away from communities when police budgets, as we heard last week, are under extraordinary pressure. You used the word “churn”. This has been a blight in the justice system and the court system for years. Given that there are tens of thousands of summary cases where work is done and a guilty plea is ultimately reached and all that work has not been needed, why on earth has there not been a better grip on this until now? What can be done? Is it a question of too many organisations all blaming one another? Does the blame lie with the Crown, with the courts, with the judiciary, with defence lawyers? Why are these figures so appalling and these delays so built into the system? What can be done apart from continually recognising it and talking about it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Russell Findlay

Your answers have partly covered the ground that I was going to ask about, but I have a question about the estates. In your submission, you say that the budget for the next four years amounts to about £440 million, which is mostly about building prisons but is also to do with the cost of providing cables for internet access, phone lines and so on.

We already know that Stirling prison is three years late and that the replacement for Barlinnie is due to open in 2026, with HMP Highland due to be finished in 2024. Last week, Police Scotland told us that inflation on building costs is much higher than general inflation—I think that the figure that we were given was around 30 per cent. You have already suggested that, in the final two years of the projections, you are expecting an overrun. Can you quantify that? Do you have any idea what the figures will be and where the money comes from? Has Government committed to meeting those costs or will the building have to stop or compromises have to be made?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Russell Findlay

Does 30 per cent inflation sound probable?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Russell Findlay

I am sure that we are all looking forward to seeing the statistics from the pilots and how they work out.

I want to go back to the point that Pauline McNeill raised about the 7,000 Covid deaths being subject to investigation. A unit has been set up to deal with that. I presume that the process will not involve a full fatal accident inquiry for each death. Is that correct? If it is, is there any public outcome in relation to the deaths?