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This will be my final question. On 27 September, the Scottish Government told the BBC that it was “extremely disappointing” that some COSLA leaders had chosen to “frustrate progress” towards a national care service. Do you feel that that is an accurate representation? Did you engage with the Government after the draft amendments were laid? If you did, what was the timeline of the response that you received?

I was part of a panel that talked about palliative care and some of the issues that surround it. Funding is one of the big challenges, as with most things. People perceive that there is a lack of funding for palliative care. People feel that there is also a huge and disproportionate difference between the palliative care that you will receive at the end of your life if you are from an ethnic minority or a more deprived background and the care that others receive. That inconsistency is not just present in one health board; it exists across our country. With no more money going into palliative care—that is not what the national care service is about—and given that huge discrepancy, what can the national care service do to make a tangible difference to the people who are most disproportionately affected?

I would like to examine how we can evaluate what is going on. Looking at the bill, I believe that there are no references to rights, accessibility, ethical commissioning, procurement or quality, and, as we have just heard, children’s services are currently in crisis. How are we supposed to evaluate what happens to people on the ground if the bill is brought in?

It has been suggested that there was a huge political divide in COSLA with regard to its position. Is there a huge political divide? What is your absolute current position?

Louise, one of the areas that you mentioned as desperately needing reform was children’s services. What reforms can we undertake now, or should we wait for an NCS to be established before we do them? Once we have put reforms in place, what should be the criteria for their success? How should we go about considering all that?

We have spent £28 million on the proposed national care service so far. Do we need a national care service in order to drive the reforms that you have all said that we need, given that there is a significant deficit, which Rachel Cackett spoke about?

Yes. Thank you. My final question is for the rest of the panel. Given that COSLA has withdrawn its support, and given that the unions, including the Scottish Trades Union Congress just yesterday, have withdrawn their support for the bill, where does that leave the bill? If we push forward with the bill as it is, with seemingly no shared accountability, what do you think will happen?

Good morning. I refer to my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a practising NHS GP. In your submission, Dr Elder-Woodward, you say:

“Like ‘The Promise’ for childcare, this is a waste of paper with meaningless words

We heard from our previous panel of witnesses that children’s services are in crisis. Given where we are right now with the bill, and the fact that £28 million has been spent on it, do you feel that it is absolutely necessary, or could we already start making changes, especially in children’s services?

I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests, which states that I am a practising general practitioner.

Councillor Kelly, you said that COSLA had pulled away from shared accountability, yet paragraph 80 of the memorandum talks about the importance of shared accountability. Given that unions have withdrawn support from the NCS—the Scottish Trades Union Congress and COSLA are the latest bodies to do so—and that, as we have heard, most of civic Scotland is united against it, it seems to me that the bill is dead in the water. However, Maree Todd, the Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport, has said that COSLA’s

“walking away ... shows total disregard for the people we all serve.”

If the NCS is pushed through in its current form, what do you feel will happen to the sector?

I declare an interest as a practising NHS GP.

It is not just COSLA that has pulled out; all the unions have done the same. I have been looking at the submissions, and no one is in full agreement that the bill as written is the way that it should be going. Certainly, that is true of the panel.

Karen Hedge spoke quite powerfully about the bill being about where the power sits. First, where does the power sit in the bill? Secondly, do we need the NCS in order to make the reforms that you have all said are needed, or could we make those reforms now, given that we have spent £28 million on the NCS so far?