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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 July 2025
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Displaying 2001 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I am slightly confused because, in her reasons not to support amendments 185 and 186, the minister set out, on the one hand, a range of measures that are available and said that there is already support in place, and, on the other, said that the requirements in the amendments would be unwieldy. Either we are close to being able to put the support into legislation and give people a right to it or we are far from being able to do that. I think that those two positions somewhat contradict each other.

To speak to Ruth Maguire’s point, it is important that we address the issues and the gaps that were highlighted to us. That is what amendment 185 seeks to do. It seeks to extend to the young person availability of legal aid—availability, incidentally; not necessarily delivery of legal aid or the making available of a lawyer in that space at that time—should it be required, particularly to address the gaps that my colleague Ruth Maguire highlighted and that I highlighted in my opening remarks around specific offences, such as those referred to in section 67 of the 2011 act. [Interruption.]

Yes, I will take an intervention.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Good morning, colleagues. My amendment 172 would put a duty on the principal reporter, in a case in which he or she identifies that a child who is subject to proceedings

“has, or is likely to have, a close connection with a person who has”

carried out domestic abuse under section 66(2) of the Children’s Hearings (Scotland) Act 2011, to refer that young person

“to a provider that specialises in domestic abuse support.”

I believe that the amendment acknowledges the unique vulnerabilities that children in situations of domestic abuse have and that those who witness domestic abuse can suffer emotional, psychological and developmental challenges.

The amendment emphasises the need for targeted intervention that is delivered by appropriate professionals who are equipped to address the needs that can be born out of the complex trauma that those children face. It would also provide an opportunity for early intervention by having a touch point early on in the state’s involvement with a referral, and to take an approach that I believe should be replicated across legislation, where appropriate.

I urge colleagues to support my amendment. I also encourage them to support Martin Whitfield’s and Miles Briggs’s amendments in the group.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I understand that some decisions will need to be taken on the basis that the minister has just described, but that is how equalities legislation works in general. It is not about treating everybody entirely the same, but about making sure that people get equal access to various opportunities and that they are treated similarly in systems. To me, that represents a bit of a misunderstanding of how equalities legislation would operate.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Okay.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Would the minister be willing, before stage 3, to discuss the final point that she made about how to define the services that would be involved? If so, I would consider not moving the amendment. If the minister does not intend to work with me between now and stage 3, I might move it.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I appreciate the minister’s explanation of amendment 17. Would there be any scope at stage 3 to consider using in amendment 17 the affirmative rather than the negative procedure to give more scrutiny of that regulation to parliamentarians?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Convener, before I do that, am I permitted to ask the minister a question about the commitment that she made to discuss amendment 169?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pam Duncan-Glancy

That is much appreciated.

Minister, you indicated that you would be willing to discuss amendment 169 and look at what we could put in place. Can you give me a bit more information about the parameters in which that discussion would take place, so that I have an understanding of how far the Government is prepared to move on the issue?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I thank the minister for her response, although I am not sure that it gives me much reassurance about amendment 169. I take the point that the minister is willing to discuss it.

On the basis that I am an optimist and that I am willing to consider what the minister has said on the record, which I hope will mean that we will get an amendment at stage 3 that looks at including trauma-informed practice, as amendment 169 suggests, I am prepared to hold my position on that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Will the member take an intervention?