Seòmar agus comataidhean

Like me, are you faced with a very difficult circumstance, which is to try to press an amendment at stage 2, which may or may not carry the support of the committee, without knowing the position of the Government?

Does the minister recognise that members will have done some of that engagement?

Okay.

Whether we are talking about the expectations or the detail of them, the fact is that, without these amendments, no compliance with the charters will be required. I am prepared to consider at stage 3 the literal point about whether the wording should mention expectations, but I suspect that there might be a broader discussion about whether those amendments would garner support.

Amendment 272 would require qualifications Scotland to consult the qualifications Scotland board before producing the teacher and practitioner charter, while amendment 273 specifies a range of interested parties whom qualifications Scotland would have to consult in preparing that charter. Amendment 274 would require qualifications Scotland to seek the view of the strategic advisory council and to revise the charter in accordance with any recommendations that the council made.

Amendment 275, which seeks to recognise the distinct needs and requirements of learners, teachers and practitioners in the post-school environment, is, I think, a really important amendment that would address the situation that would arise when staff in colleges and other institutions, as well as students, were concerned about the practice of not marking people’s exams or coursework as a result of industrial action. It is important that we put in place expectations so that learners and staff in those establishments are clear about what they can expect, in order to close some of the gaps that I think would exist if we did not add a post-school learner and practitioner charter to the bill. That is why I think that amendment 275 is so important.

Amendments 276 and 277 would ensure that the charters were reviewed every three years instead of every five. I am seeking to change the review timescale because, if the charters were reviewed only every five years, such a review could end up happening outwith the entire learning journey of a young person in secondary school. It is important that there is an opportunity to review the charters during a young person’s learning journey, not just after it.

Amendment 278 would require qualifications Scotland to consult when it reviewed or revised the charters, while amendment 279 would ensure that the strategic advisory council would be involved in the detail of such reviews and could comment on them and recommend any additions.

Finally, amendment 285 would require any failure to meet expectations in the charters to be set out in qualifications Scotland’s annual report, along with what remedies qualifications Scotland would implement.

I move amendment 255.

My intention is not to compel the sharing of specific data. This is about creating the landscape in which data sharing could be promoted more easily.

A lot of the support for this sort of approach has come from further and higher education institutions and comes out of the pilot programme looking into how we could include information for the widening access programme beyond just the Scottish index of multiple deprivation. My understanding is that the institutions would be supportive of this approach.

As I said, the amendments would not compel them to share particular data. The suggestion is that a unique learner number could smooth the way for the future development of such data sharing, if that was required.

I intend to press amendment 234, because I think that I have support for it and I feel that it is an important amendment. I will not move amendments 235, 240, 237 or 239 at this point, on the basis that Stephen Kerr’s amendment is preferred and I think that it does what mine was seeking to do anyway.

On amendment 240, I am compelled by Ross Greer’s argument about the language of terms such as simplicity, simplified and constant simplification, and I am keen to work to find another mechanism or another way of saying what I think we both agree is necessary at stage 3.

The outcome will be the same, because I will not move amendment 240, but I am not as convinced by the cabinet secretary’s point about the responsibility for coherence.

If there are too many bodies organising different aspects of qualifications, there is no leadership. That is part of the problem that we have seen in education in Scotland. I am not convinced by the cabinet secretary’s argument, but I will work with Ross Greer ahead of stage 3 on an amendment that I think could carry the support of Parliament.

On the basis that the cabinet secretary is prepared to work with me to look at how we could have regard to developments in knowledge and skills, while looking at the language around that, I will not move amendment 235.

Amendment 234 agreed to.

Amendments 34, 235 and 4 not moved.

Amendments 54 to 56 moved—[Jenny Gilruth]—and agreed to.

Amendment 5 not moved.

Amendment 6 moved—[Ross Greer]—and agreed to.

Amendments 240 and 236 to 239 not moved.

Section 7, as amended, agreed to.

After section 7

Amendment 241 not moved.

My amendments to section 6 aim to embed collaboration into the culture and the legal framework of Scotland’s education system.

The failures of the past, which have been documented, have resulted in a level of disconnected policy making that has meant that curriculum, learning and assessment, and qualifications have been somewhat kept in silos. We have ended up with a situation in which the curriculum has not always been driven by what young people want to learn in the classroom, what we need them to learn for the future or what the teaching profession and employers think that they should learn, but has been driven, in fact, by the needs of assessment. We have all recognised that, and it is one of the reasons why it is important that we take on board the reviews. My amendments in this group aim to begin to correct that situation.

My amendments 232 and 243 would establish a two-way duty of collaborative relationships between the new body, qualifications Scotland, and Education Scotland, so that we can create a system whereby, in effect, the assessment is driven by the curriculum rather than the other way round. That is really important. Although the organisations have standing relationships with different parts of the sector, we know that those relationships could be stronger and that, in places, they have fallen short.

A collaborative relationship between qualifications Scotland and Education Scotland is crucial. It is also what the OECD, and independent reports such as those by Ken Muir and Louise Hayward, said was needed, and it could enable progress towards a culture of collaboration and the coherence across learning, assessment and qualifications that most of us agree is needed.

My amendment 233 would strengthen the collaboration duty of qualifications Scotland by requiring it to work in collaboration with others, rather than to have “regard to the desirability” of doing so. Sometimes, we can get bogged down in semantics, but the bill’s language on collaboration is really important. To have a situation whereby national agencies that operate in the education landscape need only

“have regard to the desirability of ... collaboration”

is too weak. Amendment 233 would amend section 6(2) to say that qualifications Scotland “must work” with other bodies in order to create the coherence, collaboration and consistency in the system that everybody knows that we need.

I move amendment 232.

I thank the cabinet secretary for that clarification. This is more of a catch-all to ensure that we cover all the people who need to be covered for the sorts of communication that are required. I am not sure that I agree with the cabinet secretary’s rationale, but I understand it and I know the groups that are protected in the 2010 act. However, I do welcome the discussion.

I also want to make a point about the definitions. I do not see how the definitions that the cabinet secretary has set out would not still be useful if my amendment were to pass. I do not see the amendments as being mutually exclusive. I intend to vote for mine—if I move it, which I am minded to do—and for the cabinet secretary’s definition, given that it could be useful to set out provision for BSL. I do not think that setting out that definition, as it is drafted, would be problematic for my amendment.

On the other amendments in the group, I think that Ross Greer’s amendments 17 and 23, at this moment in time, pre-empt the conclusion of our consideration of the Scottish Languages Bill by putting Scots on an equal footing. I wonder whether it is appropriate to do that in this particular set of amendments.

When it comes to other aspects of the bill, such as the inclusion of BSL and those with protected characteristics with the specific aim of making sure that communication is inclusive for all, I urge members to consider supporting amendment 286.

The conversation around data sharing is, of course, a complicated one; I think that we all understand that, including me. That is one of the reasons why the amendments seek to ask the qualifications body, or the inspectorate, to look at whether doing either of the things that the amendments propose would be useful for progressing education in Scotland.

I also think that the unique learner number has broader benefits than just the enabling of data sharing. However, it would be an important aspect of what we could do to bring coherence to the learner journey.

I take the cabinet secretary’s point about the candidate number. As she has identified, there are other ways in which we could track the pupil experience. However, there are too many different ways in which to do that, and my attempt is to bring one way into the system.

On the basis of the cabinet secretary’s tentative preparedness to discuss at least the learner number, if not the data sharing aspect, I will not press amendment 244, and I will not move amendment 328 at stage 2, but I would like to discuss the matter further ahead of stage 3.

Amendment 244, by agreement, withdrawn.

I will start where Ross Greer left off, because I understand his concern about the regularity of meetings. If a meeting were to be put in just because it had to happen, that could become quite cumbersome. I will listen to what others have to say about that, but I take his point seriously.

This group of amendments is about embedding a culture of meaningful consultation. We have spent quite a lot of time this morning talking about the importance of consultation and collaboration by the national qualifications body, and the amendments seek to strengthen those things in order to overcome some of the concerns that we have had in the past about the SQA, perhaps, digging in its heels with regard to whether it should be talking to other people or taking on board their views. This is an attempt to try to avoid that happening again.

I get that culture change is difficult to legislate for, but there are lessons that we have to learn, and I see no reason why we would not put something in legislation to give a nudge, at the very least, to the relevant culture that we are hoping to achieve. That is the purpose of the amendments in this group.

My amendment 242 strengthens the consultation duty between qualifications Scotland and the strategic advisory council by requiring them to meet at least once a quarter—notwithstanding the point that I have just made about the timescales, which I am prepared to consider as the debate goes on—and, additionally, at any time that either party considers it necessary.

The amendment also removes the caveat that qualifications Scotland need only consult the SAC where it appears appropriate for it to do so. Again—and this is much like our previous discussion—the SQA might have felt in the past that it was not necessarily appropriate for it to consult particular organisations or bodies that all of us would probably have accepted that it would have been useful for it to have consulted. Therefore, amendment 242, in my name, takes out what I suppose is a sort of get-out clause for the qualifications body.

There is also an opportunity to trigger consultation with qualifications Scotland and the SAC. It means that, if we again find ourselves in the sort of situation that we had with higher history, there is an opportunity for the advisory council to say, “We need to have a meeting to discuss this”—bearing in mind the council’s role and who would be on it—and the same would apply in the other direction, so that qualifications Scotland could seek the council’s advice.

I think that that is crucial, given that the SAC is intended to be a much-needed platform that will include the voices of learners, teachers, practitioners, parents and other stakeholders representing wider society—voices that I think have been missing in the past. We must do everything that we can in the bill to create the structures that will develop the culture that we know is desperately needed, and the amendment makes it clear that Scotland’s new qualifications body would be publicly accountable to those whom it serves and would give a place to the lived experience of learners and their families. Therefore, I urge members to support amendment 242.

We are minded to support many of Ross Greer’s amendments in the group. Martin Whitfield’s comments about committees are important and we have to remember what the role of Parliament is. Nonetheless, as he and Ross Greer recognised, too often the recommendations of committees, such as this one and others, can be cast aside. We do a lot of work and we hear from a lot of people. It is important that, at the very least, due regard to should be paid to them.