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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 5 July 2025
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Displaying 2001 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Good afternoon, panel. Thank you for joining us and for providing submissions in advance.

I want to ask, first, about the international evidence. Naomi McAuliffe, will you say a little bit about your understanding of the international evidence of potential positive or negative impacts of self-ID in countries that have brought it in?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I have a final question on that. We heard earlier that some women are opting out of attending single-sex spaces and services for women such as rape crisis centres. Are you aware of that? If so, what is your response?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

That is helpful. I have one further question on border issues, if that is okay, convener.

In your submissions, you talk about the importance of ensuring that refugees and asylum seekers can access the process. Do we need to change the bill to make sure that that is the case? Could the Government provide further clarity and guidance on that if the committee asked for it?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Have any other countries done it well or badly? Are there any examples that you could use to say, “Do it like this, not like that”?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I thank the witnesses for their contributions so far.

I have a small supplementary on what was said earlier about the decoupling of law and diagnosis and medical treatment. In particular, Lucy Hunter Blackburn said that in Denmark people were moving to self-declaration for medical treatment. What is the system of medical care in that country in comparison to here? I cannot imagine a situation here in which someone could approach a medical professional and ask them to do something, and they would just do it.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

The bill does not erase gender dysphoria but just takes out the process—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

It is a follow-up question in relation to 16 and 17-year-olds.

Some panellists, including yourselves, have concerns around the lack of capacity assessment in the bill for 16 and 17-year-olds. Would you support an amendment to the bill that would create an assumption that all 16 and 17-year-olds have capacity to understand the process and its legal implications, as is the case in other law in Scotland, unless in specific circumstances an assessment would find that not to be the case?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

It has been quite the session, and I appreciate the length of time that the witnesses have been here. It has been broad ranging.

I am concerned about a number of the things that you have raised—particularly, Dr Coleman, the experiences that you have shared about what has happened in prisons. However, I am interested to note that those have happened within the current gender recognition certificate process and that people have still been able to be bad actors within that system—which is, of course, unacceptable.

I also note that we have heard a lot about puberty blockers and data on healthcare. I share my colleague Rachael Hamilton’s concerns on data in healthcare—in all healthcare; if we were a nation that properly delivered healthcare on the basis of data, we would all be in a very different circumstance. There is a lot to do on that.

However, I struggle a wee bit to see how that relates directly to the bill that is in front of us. Lucy Hunter Blackburn, I come back to the point that you made earlier, which was excellently put: we have to focus on the bill that is in front of us. The examples in prisons and the examples of puberty blockers are part of a discussion but are probably not directly related to the bill in front of us. I therefore want to move on to talk about bits of the bill itself.

My first question is on the time period. Lucy, you have suggested that there is perhaps a way to change to a single six-month period from application to issue, and that that could help with data collection. I am keen to hear how.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I understand that, but I am trying to get to the point where we can do our job as legislators, which is to make sure that the bill is the best possible piece of legislation that it can be to provide trans people with validation, destigmatisation and so on, as you said earlier. Therefore, we need to be really specific. At what point, now, do gender recognition certificates come in? Do people have to provide them in order to use toilets, changing rooms and single-sex spaces?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 May 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Okay—