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No, I do not think that we should wait. In my opening statement, I said that the data that the committee is aware of—young disabled people are three times more likely to end up not in education, employment or training—was the same in 2008, when Inclusion Scotland wrote the briefing that I have in front of me. The data was probably the same prior to that, too.

Disabled people are consistently told, “This next strategy will be the thing. You do not need this in legislation.” I remember that from working on policy when I worked in the area. There was a constant refrain of “The next thing will do it,” but it has not done it yet. Here we are, almost 20 years since we started to work together in the field—I am sorry, Bill; I said that I would not out that number—and the rights of young disabled people still do not deliver the fighting chance that they need. Therefore, I do not think that we should wait for the strategy.

How long does the committee think that disabled people should wait? What does it think is the right timescale to say whether the strategy is or is not working? Right now, there are disabled people in communities who are about to leave school or have already left school with no plan. They cannot wait for the Government’s strategy, which is not yet published.

I fully acknowledge that the Government has committed to that strategy, and I fully believe that it will be published. I take the ministers at their word, but those disabled people cannot wait for that. I urge the committee to consider that question and say how long it thinks that it is acceptable to wait and see whether that strategy works.

I appreciate that question, and I recognise your passion for the subject. In fact, all the members from whom we have heard so far have that passion. I welcome the support and energy around the subject.

The implementation gap, which is one of the first matters that Ruth Maguire asked about, is crucial. We can all point to a lot of legislation that still needs to be implemented. I understand that. I see that and, when it comes to disabled people, I have seen it for decades. Justice and access to justice for disabled people are a serious concern. I will talk in a minute about the ways in which the bill addresses some of that and is enforceable.

I recognise the work that is being done on whether we need qualifications for additional support teachers and how we encourage good practice. There is also the awards system for schools that recognises good practice in education and the journey that young disabled people have travelled. All of that is on-going and should continue. The bill does not stop any of it.

I have seen, time and again—particularly when it comes to disabled people, but the same is true for all the different protected characteristics—that, if we leave improvement to accident and default, we end up defaulting to a situation in which society discriminates against and oppresses a large group of people: disabled people. We have to fix the process by design. We cannot leave it to accident any more, and that design, I believe, should involve looking at the various different bits of legislation that exist.

Ross Greer pointed out that the co-ordinated support plan is not the same as the transitions plan. It is not. It was developed for a different purpose. The bill is developed for a specific purpose, and it is about transition.

There are two points here. The first is whether the current legislative framework is right. I do not believe that it is, and neither do a number of organisations, including the Law Society of Scotland and the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland, so we need to change that. That is what I am trying to do with the bill, but we always have to change practice because, as Graeme Dey pointed out, there is good practice in places, but there is also some pretty poor practice that we need to shine a light on and address. I contend that the bill sharpens the mind and the focus on that by putting it into legislation, being much clearer, and taking a one child, one plan approach.

We know that young people in school have access to pastoral care teachers—they were called guidance teachers in my day—and that existing structures are in place to support them. For example, staff from Skills Development Scotland engage with special and state schools. There are existing structures, which should be treating all young people equally, including young disabled people, but the statistics show that they are not doing that yet. We are saying that the bill contains a mechanism to focus attention on and address some of that.

I reassure the committee that I have not closed my ears and eyes to a different perspective on finance. I say that on the basis of my earlier comment about the costs for local authorities. The last thing that anyone wants to do is land local authorities with duties that they do not have the financial support to back up, but I contend that such support is Government’s responsibility.

We must remember two comments. I contend that good transitions would be a form of good support, and the National Audit Office said that good support could save £1 million per person—I repeat: £1 million per person. Even if we take our estimate of the cost and COSLA’s estimate and the £5 million extra, we would only have to get it right for five people to make a longer-term saving for the state.

Secondly, the Law Society of Scotland said that

“the wider costs of inaction would be greater in comparison to the costs of implementation”.

It is in the context of those two statements that I approach the question of the financial memorandum.

Bob Doris speaks to a very real and live concern. The fact that we are meeting this morning as teachers are striking does not escape me. It is fair to note that more is being asked of teachers and additional support needs assistants in schools and that there are, in fact, fewer of them than there used to be, which is part of the problem.

I go back to my earlier comment: it is absolutely not my intention to put something in place that burdens people, with them not having the resources or capacity to deal with the issue. Part of the problem with the implementation gap, which Ruth Maguire mentioned at the start of this morning’s evidence session, is exactly that.

I also argue that one reason why teachers are striking today relates to the additional stress that they experience from supporting all young people, including young disabled people, in their classes.

Yes, absolutely, and I thank Graeme Dey for saying that. There is a much bigger picture here. I hope that, through bills that will come to the Parliament, including the incorporation bill at some point, along with a national care service, we can start to look at what needs to change in all those areas, because Graeme Dey is right—so much needs to change.

Fundamentally, what we do not have in legislation is a right for children and young people to have a transitions plan from the age of 14 that follows them through to the age of 26 or beyond. There are regulation-making powers in the bill to do that. It is about focusing on what they need in order to give them a fighting chance at a future, and that is just not there right now. Ruth Maguire highlighted the implementation gap, but I am not surprised that there is an implementation gap, because the existing legislation is not directing professionals and it is not focused on this particular group of people. It is leaving professionals unclear about what their duties are, and it does not include that element of accountability so that young disabled people can hold those people to account.

I have learned a lot since coming to Parliament, in May 2021, and I think that this has probably been the steepest learning curve of my life. One of the things I have learned is that nothing sharpens a minister’s mind more than having to get on their feet in the chamber and talk about something that they have done. Over the past decade—over the past two decades, even—Bill Scott and I have worked together on similar issues. He and I have worked together for a long time—I will not embarrass him by suggesting how long, but it has been a while—and we have constantly been told, “This guidance will do it. This is the bit that will work. This strategy will work. Just focus on what doesn’t work and change that little bit.” However, I am sorry to say that the bit that does not work is the bit that the bill is trying to address. It is about giving disabled people an opportunity—a right in statute to have a plan that gives them a fighting chance at a future.

I will add to that before Stephen Kerr comes back in. Schools and the structures around young disabled people now are probably contending with that exact question. For example, everyone can see that I am a disabled person, so there is no hiding—not that I would ever want to do that, actually; I am proud of my identity. However, with impairments that you cannot see, there is always the question of how we know someone is a disabled person.

Schools are already asking those questions, because they have to identify the young people in order to work with them. There are various mechanisms that they can use to do that. They can ask what support people need and they can look at whether a diagnosis is in place. Of course, that gets us into waiting times, which is a whole other question, and it goes back to Graeme Dey’s point about the number of current problems and how we will address them. Ultimately, that will need to be looked at.

Therefore, those questions are not new as a result of the definition that we use in the bill. The purpose of the definition in the bill is to put a focus specifically on people who have that protected characteristic, in recognition of the fact that they are significantly oppressed and discriminated against.

Excellent. I am glad to be on the front foot for a change.

They are doing that. I know that because the data on young people with additional support needs is broken down by large numbers of categories of impairment. So, organisations know who those children and young people are. I also think that it is not the case that teachers and schools do not know which pupils in their classes need the extra support and who could be considered a disabled person. They have very good relationships with them.

Absolutely. That is the situation that disabled people face. I have a quotation from Audit Scotland that speaks to that. In a blog on transitions, it said:

“It’s distressing and frustrating that we repeatedly hear of the barriers that some families fight against to get the right support to help their child to learn. Too often, families are worn down by a prolonged search for the right support, and by having to manage a crisis that could have and should have been avoided.”

It went on to note:

“Councils provide support in different ways, with a wide variation in spending ... This partly reflects the different ways services are provided and the varying costs of supporting individuals—but”—

this point is crucial—

“may also reflect local decisions by councils to prioritise between a wide range of services.”

Therefore, Audit Scotland recognises the position of councils.

I should put on record that councils are in a horrific position right now—I in no way underestimate that. Now is not the time to get into the budget, because I could be here for another three hours if we were to touch on that. However, you hit the nail on the head when you made the point about councils really struggling to meet just their statutory responsibilities. I cannot tell you how often disabled people face the argument that “It’s not an obligation, so we don’t have to do it.” Social care is an example of that. Eligibility criteria get stripped back and stripped back until people are literally doing the only thing that they have to do, which is keep people alive. That is the situation that we are trying to avoid with the bill for transitions for young disabled people.

Under the technical detail in the bill, a lot of that will be down to regulation and guidance, so that local authorities can decide the model that best suits them.

On your point about legislating for relationships, you cannot legislate for relationships but you can legislate to put people in the room and build those relationships, which is what the bill seeks to do. I have been looking at the action plan that the Scottish Government has published, and I know that much work has been done on co-ordinated support plans and the ASL review. From the evidence that the ministers Clare Haughey and Christina McKelvie gave to the committee last week, it seems that the national transitions strategy might, indeed, address some of these questions. That is all really valuable. In fact, work is on-going on the creation of qualifications for teaching support and additional support teachers in schools.

All of that will add to the approach and will be helpful and important, but none of it involves legislating to ensure that people get in the room and that somebody takes control of what is happening. That is the benefit that the bill will bring.

The outcome was as Bill Scott described: there is a departure when it comes to agreement on the figures. I want to assure you—and I go back to my comments about the National Audit Office and the Law Society—