Seòmar agus comataidhean

Thank you for allowing me to come back in. I just want to address a couple of issues that have been raised about my amendment 37. I do not share my colleague Jamie Greene’s view that the amendment is narrow; it is deliberately broad so that it takes into consideration all aspects of the Equality Act 2010. Every one of us around the table, regardless of the argument that we are pushing forward—such as Brian Whittle’s argument around women and trans people in sport—is keen to say that we support all the protected characteristics, including trans people. It is really important for us all to remember that because it sometimes gets a bit lost.

One of the reasons why my amendment is so broad is that I want the whole act to be read in and relevant. I do not think that we can pick it apart, in bits and pieces. It was written to allow groups of people to live in a society where we all have to live with one another. Sometimes, there are situations where we have to ask what one protected characteristic’s rights mean for another protected characteristic’s rights. We have discussed that a lot today, and I fear that pulling bits out of the act does not allow us to consider it in its entirety. My colleague Daniel Johnson talked earlier about the act’s ability to be context specific. That is really important, and it is why amendment 37 is so broad.

On the points about the phrase “for the avoidance of doubt”, members will be aware of the Pepper v Hart approach, which means that when a member lodges an amendment, they have the opportunity to provide clarity about why they are doing so. I hope that that is helpful.

The phrase “for the avoidance of doubt” is not without precedent, but it is rare; it was used previously in the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Act 2014. I thought that it would be an appropriate mechanism to ensure that the bill is read with the whole Equality Act 2010, representing, understanding and protecting the rights of all people covered by that act, in all the protected characteristics.

I appreciate having been given the opportunity to come back in to give an explanation of that. I hope that members find it helpful.

Can the cabinet secretary explain why that information cannot be gathered?

Thank you for that, Sheena. It echoes some of what Rachel Cackett said and paints a pretty grim picture of what is going on.

I want to ask Frank McKillop and Andrew Ewen about the experience of their members from a service user point of view as opposed to a provider point of view. Can you both say something about that and about what we need to do now rather than in the longer term?

Good morning, minister, and good morning to your officials. I am pleased that you have referred to the fact that we cannot wait but need to take some measures now, and I am not at all surprised to hear that disabled people and their organisations are urging change as soon as possible. I remember being involved in asking the Scottish Government to address social care 15 years ago. To say that there has been incremental change since then is probably an understatement.

There are a number of problems right now. Disabled people are getting so few hours of care and support that they are having to choose between using those hours to go shopping, to pay their bills—with someone there to help them—or to have a shower. That is the reality that disabled people are facing right now. As regards carers who are working in the sector and living on poverty pay, the minister has mentioned that there have been two pay increases, but that has not been enough, and carers are leaving the sector to work in supermarkets instead, because the pay is better there. That is leaving people without the care and support that they need.

Which parts of the problems that I have just outlined is the minister going to address now, instead of waiting until the national care service is developed?

The problems that have been outlined about postcode lotteries, and the need for a national approach to what people can expect, are not new, and I share the characterisation of those concerns. However, I do not share the Government’s characterisation of the situation as one in which it does not have any accountability or responsibility for that. People who receive services for social care, or people who work in social care, should not be expected to have to go to multiple doors and multiple agencies to get answers. I am afraid that, actually, the buck stops with the minister. I therefore hope that there will be a mechanism in the here and now, as well as in the future, for people to hold the system to account.

The other point that I want to make—after which I will get to my question—is that, although I am pleased that the issue of sectoral bargaining has been raised, there is nothing whatsoever in the bill about it. That is giving serious concerns to various people across the sector, such as trade unions and third sector organisations. It would therefore be good to hear that the bill will include a commitment to collective bargaining.

It might be self-evident, but are the retention and recruitment issues largely to do with pay and conditions, or are there other factors?

Sheena Arthur, could you respond to the same question and tell us about the situation in Glasgow for your members?

Thank you. Do you have anything further—

I have one final question, convener—you will not need to come back to me if I ask it now.

I am pleased to hear that sectoral bargaining is on the agenda, and I press the minister to give an absolute commitment to it, because I know that a number of people are seriously concerned that, as a result of this process, we will go backward rather than forward on fair work. A firm commitment on that would therefore be helpful.

It could be one person’s view that a framework bill is flexible and another person’s view that, because there is no detail, people cannot have confidence in what it will deliver. In that regard, I am interested in human rights. Two specific rights are in the bill, but neither of them relates to article 19 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. I heard what the minister said about the forthcoming human rights bill, but we cannot have a situation in Scotland in which we have one overarching human rights bill that governs everything and all of the services. We also have to look at how we implement human rights through different parts of Government, including in the national care service. Will the minister therefore commit to putting the right to independent living in the bill? How will human rights be delivered for the people who use the national care service and those who work in it?

You missed the bit about including the right to independent living in the bill. As I am sure you are aware, Dr Jim Elder-Woodward has prepared a paper and is a good promoter of that work. In that paper, he sets out various ways that the bill could make clearer what the human rights of the people who will use the service will be. Would the minister be prepared to look at embedding the structure that Dr Elder-Woodward has outlined into the framework of the bill and including independent living in that?