Seòmar agus comataidhean

Thanks for that point.

As I was saying, we have come to the end of our time—it is exactly 11 o’clock. Some good points have been raised that I know that I, at least, will have to look at in a little more detail. Next week, on 13 September, we will take evidence on the same topic from the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government.

I thank everyone who has contributed to this morning’s discussion. As agreed previously, we will take our next item in private.

They are absolutely connected. One of the problems of this committee is the need to recognise that they are connected.

In a previous evidence session, Robbie Kernahan from NatureScot made the point that when there are too many exceptions, they become unexceptional.

Some stakeholders, including the League Against Cruel Sports and Scottish Badgers, are concerned that the bill may be in danger of having too many exceptions to enable it to fulfil the Scottish Government’s original intentions. What are your thoughts on that, minister?

I thank the minister and her team for being here to provide evidence. A 2019 poll found that 77 per cent of the Scottish public felt that legislation to protect wild animals from hunting with dogs needed to be strengthened, and much of the evidence that the committee has received backs that up. Police Scotland, Lord Bonomy and Chief Superintendent Mike Flynn of the SSPCA have all talked about the challenges of convicting and proving offences under the existing Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002.

Do you believe that the bill will fully resolve those difficulties or is there scope for amendments to further clarify and define the offences to ensure that, as you previously stated,

“chasing and killing a mammal with a dog, for sport or otherwise, has no place in modern Scotland”?

Context matters, whether for enforcement or in relation to the bill as a whole. The UK Climate Change Committee has called for a 20 to 50 per cent cut in the number of sheep and cattle to help to combat climate change. Over the evidence sessions that we have had, it has grown on me that we are talking as if things are going to stay the same. However, if we are really going to respond to the nature and climate emergencies, the way in which we farm will change and the way in which we manage our land will need to change. Did you give any consideration to that as you drafted the bill?

The committee has heard and read evidence from several witnesses who do not agree that there is a need for a licensing scheme and are concerned that it will leave loopholes for traditional fox hunting to continue.

If there is to be a licensing scheme, do you believe that it would benefit from incorporating some of the principles that were set out in Alison Johnstone’s proposed member’s bill from the previous parliamentary session on protecting Scotland’s wild mammals? It proposed that there should be no negative impact on the local or national conservation status of the species in question, that licences should be issued where there is a risk that dependent young will suffer and that licences must be conditional on reporting the number of animals that have been killed or hunted for publication by the licensing authority. Has the Scottish Government considered those or other licensing principles that were suggested in my former colleague’s proposed member’s bill?

Thank you.

Thank you for that. I think that we will come to licensing in a bit more detail next.

What I am hearing in your response is that there will be scope during the bill process.

As has already been noted, several stakeholders, including the League Against Cruel Sports and OneKind, are concerned that the exceptions and licences in the bill will leave loopholes allowing practices that are cruel to animals to continue, as happened with the Protection of Badgers Act 1992. In order to reassure stakeholders and the 87 per cent of the public who are in favour of a watertight ban on traditional fox hunting, are you confident that no licences will be granted to any of the 10 mounted hunts in Scotland that currently hunt with dogs two to four times a week for five or six months of the year?

Good morning and welcome to the 21st meeting in 2022 of the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee. We have received apologies from Mark Griffin. I ask all members to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent, and that all other notifications are turned off during the meeting. Marie McNair and Annie Wells join us online.

The first item on our agenda is a decision on whether to take items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Item 3 is an opportunity for us to consider our approach to our report on the allotments inquiry. Item 4 is a chance to consider correspondence from the Scottish Government on national planning framework 4. Item 5 is an opportunity for the committee to consider its approach on pre-budget scrutiny. Do members agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.