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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 6 February 2026
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Displaying 3307 contributions

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Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 29 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

Well, you are being cross-examined, cabinet secretary.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 29 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

You—

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 29 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

To be absolutely clear, the cabinet secretary is trying to shade my questions on the basis of it being one person’s account versus another person’s account. I am trying to get to the facts and hold up to examination his performance as cabinet secretary. I have the HES model framework document—or executive NDPB document, or whatever it is called—here. It says:

“The Chair and Board Members are accountable to the Scottish Ministers”.

It goes on to say that the CEO

“is employed and appointed by the Board with the approval of the Scottish Ministers and is the principal adviser to the Board on the discharge of its functions and is accountable to the Board.”

What I cannot get my head around, having done some executive work in my career, is how you, cabinet secretary, as the person to whom these people account, did not once challenge them in person, did not meet them and did not say, “Right. We’re going to have a meeting. We’ve got to discuss this face to face.” Your predecessors did, but you did not. You have not fulfilled your responsibilities as the cabinet secretary with a direct responsibility for what is happening in Historic Environment Scotland. People inside that organisation—many of whom have contacted me and, I am sure, other members of the committee—are making it clear that, regardless of the rights and wrongs of all the various leadership configurations in HES before and since 2023, you have not fulfilled your duty.

09:00

The timeline that you have given us begins on 23 April 2025, so there is no reference in there to the difficulties that the chair and the board were reporting to your team about the performance of the new chief executive officer. Whether or not that is because they were discomfited, as Kenneth Hogg says, by her inquiries, that was a point at which you could have said, “Right. What are the issues? Let’s talk about it.” What it does not include, as you have now highlighted, is the fact that the new CEO brought a grievance against the then chair. By the way, I understand that he learned about that a month after it was made and did not receive any of the details of what he was being accused of until July, which seems a very wrong state of affairs. Regardless of who is right or wrong, that does not seem to be appropriate at all.

One of the communications from your office to the chair, which we are all now privy to, shows that it was not standard practice for you to meet the people whom you appointed—that is, the chair and the board of these non-departmental public bodies. That is not right, is it, Kenneth?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 29 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

But the chief executive is not accountable to the cabinet secretary. I am reading from the model framework. They are accountable to the chair and the board.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 29 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

Who is accountable to the cabinet secretary? It is the chair and the board.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 29 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

With the approval of ministers.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 29 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

But not the chair—why? Fiona Hyslop did.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 29 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

No, he did not. He never met the chair.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 29 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

In 2022.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 29 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

Okay. I have loads of questions that I will write to the committee and to the cabinet secretary with, because they are important questions that we were never going have time to go through, given the way that we go on in this committee.

I will ask specifically about the evidence that was given to the committee by Audit Scotland last week. The Auditor General was dissatisfied—it would be more than fair to say—with the current arrangements in respect of the accountable officer. I could give you the extended quote if you want, but I am not sure that it would be helpful. It is in column 40 of the Official Report of the committee’s meeting last week. He said that the idea that you can separate out the accountable officer’s responsibilities so that the person who is supposed to be the accountable officer does some of them and other people do the rest of them is just not right, not acceptable and not sustainable. Last Thursday, he questioned why nothing had happened on the part of the Scottish Government since 17 December, when the section 22 report was published.

I wish that we had time, because I would have liked to go through the extensive evidence that we received from the board of HES at a previous meeting of the committee, when it said that it has nothing to do with who the accountable officer is and that that is a Scottish Government issue. Bottom line: why have you done nothing since 17 December to appoint an accountable officer?