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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 17 September 2025
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Displaying 2474 contributions

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Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 11 September 2025

Stephen Kerr

Good morning. Clearly this is a meeting about finances and money, so I will stick firmly to the remit of talking about the money dimension. Alison Turnbull, you are in the company of three chief executives, but you are the director of external relations and partnerships. Is that right?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 11 September 2025

Stephen Kerr

You are not responsible, in the first instance, for the finances of HES, are you?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 11 September 2025

Stephen Kerr

Yes, and the chairman has resigned.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 11 September 2025

Stephen Kerr

I find that a bit strange, to be honest. If we are going to talk about money, the money person should really be sitting at the table. That is my view, which I have expressed.

You have already mentioned that the chief executive is off on long-term illness. We had her before the committee previously and we discussed the new financial model with her. It has just been announced that the chairman is leaving—he is leaving before his time is due.

I am going to refer to some press reports about HES that suggest that there seems to be some form of crisis in the organisation. “Toxic” working environments have been mentioned. What is going on in HES?

The most recent report I have here says that the Government has launched a probe into the internal controls of HES. This meeting is all about money, just to be absolutely clear. How much public money did you say you receive?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 11 September 2025

Stephen Kerr

In any organisation, internal control and culture around internal control is critical to the management of public money. What is happening inside HES?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 11 September 2025

Stephen Kerr

I am going to be very specific now, if I may. I have been approached by a number of whistleblowers and other people who have brought certain things to my attention. I have a list, but I will give you one example that causes me some concern about attitude, culture and internal control.

It has been brought to my attention by a number of people that on 11 August, one of the directors of HES had a dinner with a companion in the Queen Anne building at Edinburgh Castle. The Queen Anne building is a facility that is reserved for parties of up to 40 people and it can cost up to £12,000 to hire—I am not sure whether that includes the catering, but I think that maybe it does. Someone said to me that of that £12,000, £9,000 would come directly back into Historic Scotland. However, two people, a director and a companion, dined in that space alone, which apparently—this is why it has been brought to my attention—is very irregular.

When I read reports that the directors have the attitude—this is an allegation—that they

“walk around like they own our castles”,

and then people said to me that on 11 August, during the time of the tattoo, a director and a companion ate alone in that very prestigious and expensive room, alarm bells rang. You will understand that. A director is treating that property as if it is their own.

If I do a freedom of information request—I intend to do this, by the way; I am giving you advance notice—to discover the circumstances of that event in the Queen Anne building, what will I discover? I think that I might discover that they paid a token amount. Instead of £12,000, did they pay £50 or £100, or maybe nothing at all? Can you understand why I am concerned about internal control and the directors’ attitude towards managing the public finances when that sort of thing is brought to my attention?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 11 September 2025

Stephen Kerr

What are the three high-risk maintenance issues that you are looking at?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 11 September 2025

Stephen Kerr

There are lots of other questions that I could ask you, but time does not allow it.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 11 September 2025

Stephen Kerr

I have some more questions, if it is possible to ask them.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 11 September 2025

Stephen Kerr

You talk about needing an increase in funding and say that nothing has changed since 2008—in terms of value, you are on the same as you were on in 2008. What would it take?