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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 29 November 2025
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Displaying 2911 contributions

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Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 20 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

It is perceptive that you say that, because central to the Dunlop review was the secretariat but also a dispute resolution mechanism.

I will ask the others to comment on the Dunlop review. To me, we now have a structure, but we do not have frequency of meetings, we do not have train tracks and we do not have a rail timetable. What we have is a schematic outline of something that happens when someone decides somewhere that we will have a meeting. That does not seem terribly satisfactory if we want a joined-up and mature process of intergovernmental working.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 20 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

You mention Canada, and I am sure at the forefront of consideration—you can see this in the review that Dunlop produced—was the idea that there ought to be a rewiring of Whitehall. You started off talking about the Whitehall conundrum and the one week a year when it has a devo focus, whereas devolution has transformed our constitutional working arrangements, which means that the wiring is out of date in many instances in Whitehall, and so is the culture.

I appreciate that I will run out of time, convener. Rachel, would you like to comment? Then we can hear from Hedydd.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 20 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

I understand that a dispute is currently going through the mechanism—I had not been aware of that until this week.

Hedydd, do you have any final comments on the issue of Dunlop, the secretariat and the dispute resolution?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 20 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

Thank you all for taking on my questions.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 20 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

I put it to you that they are not meeting very regularly. I have the numbers here. Some of these committees have met only once, including—astonishingly—the interministerial group on UK-EU relations. We have to be careful that we do not get caught up with the surface veneer of what we are being told. In reality, nothing has changed.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 20 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

Thereby hangs a tale. We have a system and a structure. It is looking through a glass darkly, to use a biblical phrase. Can we go to Hedydd Phylip? I hope that I am pronouncing your name properly, Hedydd.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 20 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

If they can agree anything.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 20 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

I am one of those colleagues whom Patrick Harvie identified as not trusting Governments. I believe that we need strong parliaments and transparency, which is why the language around the reset interests me. We are almost repeating the messages that the Labour Government is giving about an improvement in tone when the actual output evidence, based on the number of meetings that are being held within the structure, including the two meetings that have been held of the council of the nations and regions, suggests that there is more rhetoric than reality.

Can I have a quick around-the-table on the reset and what it means? No long answers are required, because I think that I already know the answer, but I would like to hear it from you, as academics.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 20 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

Is there not a context to be considered here? Previous Governments, since 2016, were dealing with two epoch-type events with inadequate structures—hence the political crises that followed intergovernmental relations at every twist and turn. Brexit, of course, led pretty much to a breakdown of relationships between the Governments at times, and the other event was the pandemic. We are not in those situations now and we have structures, but the structures seem to be very loose.

You said earlier—I am not sure that I agree with this, but I am happy to quote it back to you—that informality is the modus operandi of our constitutional working. In fact, if you look at the work of a UK minister or even a Scottish minister, there is not a lot of informality about what they do. Everything is recorded—everything that they do and every meeting. The same formalities do not exist in these structures, even without the crises-making context of Brexit and the pandemic.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 20 November 2025

Stephen Kerr

I agree with the use of the phrase ad hoc, because that is exactly what we have. We have a form of structure but not actual structure, and we have ad hocery, which is how we seem to do everything.