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I refer back to what Jen has said, which is that the PSED is largely a procedural instrument. Nick, do you want to add anything to that?

You are right that there are multiple questions in there. I will do my best to address them; if I do not, I am quite happy for you to write to me and I can give you further information.

My role as an equalities minister is to balance the rights of various people. As you quite rightly said, there are nine protected characteristics, which were protected over time because it was recognised that people with those characteristics face additional barriers, systemic discrimination and harms. We want to ensure that people in each of those categories have a better life and have access to what everybody else has access to.

My job is to balance those rights in a compassionate and kind way that is within the law. It is not a competition, nor is it a hierarchy. If we strip back the approach and look at what underpins it, it is a human rights approach. If we accept that human rights must be at the heart of everything that we do to advance equality, we see the human who is in front of us and make sure that they have dignity and respect and are not in difficult positions.

I understand that there is a bigger debate around the issue, which has become very polarised, and that there are very strong feelings—it is difficult—but my position is that rights are not a competition or hierarchy. If we start from a point of dignity and fairness then, of course, nobody should be getting undressed in a situation that they feel uncomfortable in.

I understand the nub of what you are saying. I will give you an example from my experience—the member will be aware that I do not often talk from my experience because my job is to represent everybody and do the best that I can for them—that may be relevant here, which is for you to judge. Many years ago, a similar debate was had around BAME and Muslim women who were fleeing domestic violence and getting accommodation in women’s refuges. In that space, their harms were being compounded because they did not have access to culturally sensitive food, and they did not have access to other women who were like them—people take comfort in having such a service.

The women were also victims of racism in that space, and when those issues were talked about, it was discovered that, “Yes, there is a practical way forward,” and solutions were looked at that accommodated everybody’s needs—our needs as BAME women are complex and nuanced. After that, women’s refuges were set up specifically for women from ethnic minorities so that they did not have to suffer the additional harm that is caused by racism in such a space. I hope that that gives the member some comfort that I take seriously and understand the complexities. My job as a minister is to balance that with as much fact as I can, to reassure people and to make sure that the letter of the law is being followed.

You have touched on the prison service, so I will bring in Cat McMeeken.

Yes. I do not understand the point that you wish me to address—I am sorry.

Thank you for that, Maggie. You will be well aware of my years in education. I still feel very passionate about children in particular, but I include neurodivergent adults, autistic adults and dyslexic adults as well.

What you describe is heartbreaking, and we should absolutely be doing better. I would argue that we are, and that those issues are being taken very seriously.

I outlined to the committee the approach of getting portfolios to speak to each other. In the particular case that you raise, there are clear correlations with other areas. Cross-working needs to happen between, for example, the health budget, which is substantial, and education. Those are just two areas—there will be others. Housing will come into it, as will social care.

The challenge for all of us, as elected members with portfolio responsibilities, is that we have a duty not only to take care of our own patch but to recognise—as you alluded to in your question—that a decision in one portfolio area that is taken with the best of intentions could have an unintended consequence, and deprive somebody of a service, in another area. In addition, there are areas in which duplication can happen.

I have highlighted some of the work that I am doing—for instance, I met with representatives of the Scottish councils’ equality network. For a minister to meet with those folk, who are working incredibly hard at local authority level, has never been done before; I brought together all 32 local authorities to do that. That should give you an indication that I am trying to get to the heart of our public services—in that case, our local authorities, which are direct providers of many of the services to the folks you mention.

The Scottish Government is taking those steps to build that competence and capability across the public sector. In addition, the online equality and human rights mainstreaming strategy toolkit will be published later this year. That will provide resources for officials across the public sector to increase their competence in equality, inclusion and human rights. Those resources will include guidance, checklists, training materials and best practice examples. The content is being developed by working groups, with representatives from key stakeholders, and the aim is to support policy officials by setting out pragmatic steps that they can take to support their mainstreaming journey.

We are also moving forward in building our capacity in inclusive communications, and we are committed to embedding that across our public services. I know that I am due another visit to the committee with regard to our public sector equality duty, so we will be able to go into that in further detail.

I hope that that gives you an indication that there is visible leadership in this area, not only in ensuring that we have different ways of working but in empowering officials. Those officials may be working in local authorities, as in the example that I gave, but the approach applies equally to those in the third sector; I mentioned my extensive meeting with duty bearers, for instance. We need to provide people with the support that they need to do that work. We cannot simply say, “This is what I expect”, because people will come back and say, “Well, how am I meant to do that? Where are the resources, and where is the support?” I think that I have given a reasonable account of how we are doing that.

It is always a bit odd when something is read out—it sounds quite stark. I do not agree that I was not across the detail. However, you will understand that each portfolio has a specialism and that, although I would be expected to have an overarching knowledge, I do not think that it would be reasonable to expect the equalities minister to have an in-depth knowledge of each individual portfolio area. I think that that is only reasonable, given that each area is highly specialist and extensive.

On rural proofing, rural considerations are mainstreamed in the Scottish Government, so, as I have said, good policy making should already include those. As I said in earlier responses, the Scottish Government is in the process of introducing a new and systematic approach, which is called the rural assessment toolkit and which should further aid the greater focus that is required to be applied to the unique needs of rural communities and businesses. As I have said, the toolkit will support civil servants to understand the unique characteristics, challenges and opportunities.

A key principle of the successful development of rural policy is to have meaningful engagement with rural stakeholders and communities at an early stage in the policy development process in order to consider how those stakeholders can actually shape that policy. The challenge for us will be to ensure that their evidence is visible within the policy. As part of the support and challenge, that is where I can come in to track that voice. We have spoken about that before, and Tess White will know that I am committed to ensuring that, as part of that transparency process, the stakeholders and people that we hear from can see that when we produce our documents.

Tess White will also be aware that many voices come to the table and many representations are made. Ministers and cabinet secretaries have the right to take on board everything that they hear before they make decisions. They are best placed to do that.

I was talking about the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, Land Reform and the Islands. That meeting is coming up, and if there is anything that Tess White—

Yes, I am happy to do that. The equality and human rights budget advisory group makes a significant contribution in helping us to achieve our ambition for Scotland to be a global leader in equality and human rights. We are hugely grateful for its guidance, leadership and recommendations, which we continue to progress, including in our approach to this year’s EFSBS. As is noted in the letter that I sent to the committee last week,

“Out of the 22 actions, 9 have been completed and 12 are in progress, with one yet to get underway as it is contingent upon the completion of another action.”

That included undertaking a structured review of the 2024-25 EFSBS and discussing the findings with the group, agreeing—in partnership with EHRBAG—an approach to this year's EFSBS and implementing improvements to budget guidance by providing portfolios with a handbook and better integration with the programme for government.

Yes—if you could just give me a wee second, because there is a lot of information that I want to make sure that I have here.

Can you just repeat the last bit of your question for me?