Seòmar agus comataidhean

Hunt monitoring was set up in 2018—before my time—in the wake of Lord Bonomy’s report. I understand that the individual who was undertaking that work could not continue with it. Because of Covid and other complications, no one else was found to do the work and, by that point, we were pursuing primary legislation.

My position is that it would be best to get the bill through and then to consider what monitoring is required. I hope that we will have reached a point where the law and its application and enforcement are clear enough that we may have negated the need for monitoring, but that remains to be seen. We will know that once we get to the other side of the bill.

I am sorry, convener, but will you describe the first scenario again? You talked about the use of nets.

In response to your question on whether I think that the bill rises to the challenge of what we are pursuing—which is to have the highest possible animal welfare standards, acknowledge the need for control in rural Scotland and rectify what was supposed to have been done 20 years ago—the answer is that I do. However, we are at the beginning of the parliamentary scrutiny process, and I value the input of that process and am open minded on ways in which the committee and its witnesses think that the bill could be improved. I look forward to having discussions about that as we progress, and I also look forward to your stage 1 report.

That would not apply to game birds.

I will explain my understanding of that, and I can bring in my team if need be.

To go back to the point about intent, if someone sets out with the purpose of pursuing a combination of game shooting and control of wild mammals, the bill will apply. The two-dog limit will apply and the person will have to comply with the terms of the bill. If they go out only for game shooting—therefore, not in pursuit of a wild mammal and with no intention of pursuing a wild mammal—the bill will not apply. In those circumstances, I expect that, if the dogs that the person was using went after a wild mammal, and that was not the person’s intention, they would not be caught by the bill. However, I appreciate that that needs clarity and I will see whether my colleagues have anything to add to what I have said. Hazel Reilly, from our legal department, will come in.

Our intention is that anyone who sets out to control wildlife in the Scottish countryside should abide by the bill. That means that people who take part in a joint shoot that involves game, which is not caught by the bill, and wild mammals, which is caught by the bill, will be caught by the bill.

That is a really good point—it is similar to the point that Mercedes Villalba raised earlier about the need for review. From the Scottish Government’s perspective, we have an interest in understanding, and a duty to understand, the effect of the laws that we pass and whether the licensing schemes that are developed are working properly. We have a commitment, under the Bute house agreement, to review that across the piece to ensure that that is the case.

NatureScot will be responsible for monitoring, evaluating and reviewing the scheme for its own purposes. When Robbie Kernahan was in front of the committee, he was quite clear that NatureScot embraced that role and would be undertaking it.

Sorry—Hugh Dignon has just reminded me that NatureScot will be publishing the data, which is a helpful form of scrutiny.

I can certainly write to the committee with some of what we considered when we developed the two-dog limit.

My understanding is that the definition that has been used is one that is used across the piece in legislation; I understand that it is derived from European Union retained law. I am pleased about the fact that we have the ability to amend and add to the list. If there are specific issues with regard to the definition, I am happy to address them, but those were the main points that came up. The fact that we have the flexibility to add and remove things from the list is important.

It is a good point. We are working with two core offences and a suite of exceptions, and then we are working with two exceptions to the exceptions. Regarding the four original exceptions—this is where I get tongue-tied—I think that they are right and reflect the realities that exist when people are required to undertake control of wild mammals.

As I mentioned earlier, the RSPB has welcomed one of the exceptions—the environmental benefit exception—because that was not part of the 2002 act. I do not have the quote in front of me, so I do not want to misquote the RSPB, but I think that it said that the exception was a welcome addition to its range of tools for the landscape-scale management of our land that it undertakes.

With regard to the licensing scheme, I very much come from the position that it is correct. I think that it would be wrong for the Government to see what the Bonomy review had said—that there will be circumstances in which two dogs are not sufficient to undertake a legal activity of flushing, because of terrain—and then not to act on that. It is correct that the Government does so.

I want the licensing scheme to be workable; I do not want people who ought to be entitled to use it to feel that they cannot do so, or to feel frustrated by the process. Equally, however, a licence has to be construed as the option that is available when there are no other options. That is how we will seek to design the scheme with stakeholders.