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That is an absolutely fair point. Just as we work with NatureScot on the financial implications, we will work with Police Scotland. The Scottish SPCA plays an important role in helping Police Scotland to manage some resource issues, including the rehoming of animals. We are due to undertake some work to review the powers of the Scottish SPCA that pertain to wildlife crime, which might play into some of that.

I thank the committee for having us today.

Although it has been unlawful for 20 years, we know that mammals continue to be chased and killed by packs of dogs in Scotland, whether inadvertently when people undertake management or deliberately when people participate in illegal activities such as hare coursing. My intention is to ensure that what has been unlawful for 20 years cannot persist and to deliver legislation that clearly sets out the purposes for which dogs can be used and the conditions that must be adhered to when they are used.

In his review, Lord Bonomy noted that the existing legislation lacks clarity and is unduly complicated and that that has resulted in difficulties in bringing prosecutions under the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002. I was pleased to hear his comments to the committee that he considers the bill to be

“a very well-crafted piece of legislation”

and that it

“should be a great incentive for better enforcement of the law”.—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 15 June 2022; c 41.]

As well as clarifying the legal position, the bill introduces a two-dog limit for searching for, stalking and flushing wild mammals. That is an important additional safeguard to reduce the risk of foxes and other wild mammals being chased and killed by packs of dogs. It will significantly reduce the risk that, if dogs are not under control, whether inadvertently or deliberately, it will lead, as it has done, to their chasing and killing mammals.

The vast majority of foxes in Scotland are controlled without the use of dogs. The bill allows for the use without licences of two dogs to protect livestock. However, I recognise, as Lord Bonomy did, that there are circumstances in which two dogs will not be sufficient to undertake the lawful activity of flushing a mammal to waiting guns. That can be because of terrain in thick forest or on hill ground, for example. Because of that, the bill includes provision for more than two dogs to be used via a licensing scheme if it can be demonstrated that there is no other solution.

I will be clear on two points. First, applying for a licence should be the exception. NatureScot, as the licensing authority, would need to scrutinise applications. Secondly, where a licence is merited for use, we are determined that it will be workable, reasonable and available.

We will get into more detail on it in the discussion, but the other main policy provision in the bill is the banning of trail hunting. The reasons for that are twofold. First, trail hunting poses a significant risk to wild mammals. Dogs can be diverted from a laid trail on to a natural trail and start chasing and killing wild mammals. Secondly, we know from evidence down south that trail hunting is used as a cover for unlawful hunting. Therefore, we want to take the opportunity not just to close historical loopholes but to rise to the opportunity of preventing others from opening.

I have been following the committee sessions, and I am aware of some of the discussions that have arisen with regard to the bill. It is very helpful for me to hear those discussions, and I am glad to have the opportunity to hear more of them today.

I understand that the control of wild mammals is a controversial issue, and I know that the committee has heard strong views on either side of the debate. The bill is principally about pursuing the highest possible animal welfare standards in Scotland, but on the understanding that we are a rural nation and access to legitimate control must be possible.

I will leave it there, convener. Thank you.

There are two points in that. The first is about our clarifying the application of the bill to the various types of shooting activity that people might undertake. It will apply not to game but to wild mammals. Perhaps we need clarity on that. That is what this process is all about.

The second point was about rabbits. I have to be clear that one of our policy decisions is that rabbits should be afforded the same protection as hares. The reason for including rabbits in the bill is twofold. First, we accept that there are significant welfare issues when dogs chase and kill hares. We see no reason why that ought not also apply to rabbits, so we want to bring those within the definition of “wild mammal”.

Secondly, we know that, when people are caught hare coursing, they often say that they were shooting rabbits. We do not want to create that opportunity. On the point that Rachael Hamilton made, permission to be on land might eliminate the opportunity for people to say that they were shooting rabbits when, in fact, they were undertaking hare coursing, but it does not touch on our welfare concerns about rabbits being chased and ripped apart.

That is why rabbits have been included in the bill, and why I do not think that permission is enough to negate the need to bring rabbits within its scope.

Sorry—Hugh Dignon was just reminding me what RELM stands for.

I have undertaken meetings across the piece, and I have actively tried to engage with everyone who has an interest in the bill. From the beginning, I have always said that I am particularly interested in developing policy that people who will be affected by it will understand.

On the specific point about the RELM group—we think that RELM stands for rural environment land management—my colleague Leia Fitzgerald was just telling me that she has been invited to a meeting of the group and will be attending.

That is another interesting point, similar to the one about the training of police dogs. We would not want to do anything that got in the way of the operation of Police Scotland duties.

The absence of stop-and-search powers in the bill reflects the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, which does not contain such powers. However, as with the training of police dogs, we will speak to Police Scotland and decide whether something needs to be accommodated at a later stage.

This comes back to the bones of the licensing scheme, as set out in the bill. Explicit reference is made to

“the minimum number of dogs”;

thereafter, that issue will be for NatureScot’s experts to determine—I am, of course, a politician, not an expert—according to the circumstances in front of them, which will include the size of the farm, the size of the fields, the number of sheep, the size of the environmental project and the rate of spread of the invasive non-native species. All those things will have to be taken into account. Therefore, I could not possibly determine what the minimum number of dogs would be in the circumstances.

I can do so. I might need to cancel whatever is next, but I will check.

Did you mean loss of livestock?

What is in the bill reflects our understanding of how people are operating right now. I mentioned what we might call environmental schemes, whereby, for example, invasive non-native species are being controlled on the islands. The way that we have expressed it in the bill tries to reflect how people are using dogs now. There is a difference between people who might set out on a year-long activity of eradicating an invasive non-native species on an island and, for example, a farmer who finds evidence that there is a fox in his or her fields and has to call on support in order to control that. I would not refer to the latter as a scheme; I would refer to that as the on-going workings of the farm.

I do not think that I am trying to draw a great distinction here. I do not disagree with you that there will be times when what someone is undertaking in order to protect lambs could be referred to as a scheme, but the bill seeks to reflect how people are using dogs in real life.

I cannot give detail today on the content of the licence beyond that which is set out in the bill. The bill sets out the mandatory requirements for what will be in the licence, but the development and terms of the licensing scheme will be informed by the bill process and the stakeholder engagement that we are already undertaking.

NatureScot will review the operation of the licensing scheme, as it does with the operation of all the licensing schemes and other matters that it is in charge of. In the Bute house agreement, there is a commitment to review the operation of licensing schemes generally to ensure that they are compatible with the law and in line with our expectations. The licensing scheme under the bill will be part of that review, too.