Seòmar agus comataidhean

It is a good point. We are working with two core offences and a suite of exceptions, and then we are working with two exceptions to the exceptions. Regarding the four original exceptions—this is where I get tongue-tied—I think that they are right and reflect the realities that exist when people are required to undertake control of wild mammals.

As I mentioned earlier, the RSPB has welcomed one of the exceptions—the environmental benefit exception—because that was not part of the 2002 act. I do not have the quote in front of me, so I do not want to misquote the RSPB, but I think that it said that the exception was a welcome addition to its range of tools for the landscape-scale management of our land that it undertakes.

With regard to the licensing scheme, I very much come from the position that it is correct. I think that it would be wrong for the Government to see what the Bonomy review had said—that there will be circumstances in which two dogs are not sufficient to undertake a legal activity of flushing, because of terrain—and then not to act on that. It is correct that the Government does so.

I want the licensing scheme to be workable; I do not want people who ought to be entitled to use it to feel that they cannot do so, or to feel frustrated by the process. Equally, however, a licence has to be construed as the option that is available when there are no other options. That is how we will seek to design the scheme with stakeholders.

That is a reasonable question. We have already been discussing it for some time with NatureScot, to ensure that there is clear understanding about the extra work that comes with an additional licensing scheme and the body’s capacity to fulfil that. It has assured us thus far that that is manageable within its current budget.

I can include more on that when we write to you about our considerations in developing the two-dog limit, but I have to say that it largely reflects what we have been told about what is necessary. By the same token, if I am being told that it is not going to work, my mind is not closed to that. After all, I do not want this not to work or its availability to undermine what we are trying to do. That said, where it is needed, I do not want it to be a fudge.

That would be good.

If someone is pursuing an activity and the dogs that they are using flush a rabbit, the bill will apply because it is a wild mammal. The bill is about protection of wild mammals in Scotland. I ask Hugh Dignon to come in.

They are so vast that it is difficult to say. The protection of a lamb may be required in different circumstances—for example, some farmers lamb indoors and some lamb on the hill. Those are different circumstances. It is virtually impossible for me to say how that compares with invasive non-native species on an island.

They are pursued for different reasons, so I cannot—

I thank Jim Fairlie for that question. That is probably one of the most vexed issues, because we are presented with something that is between a rock and a hard place. Jim Fairlie defined that pretty well in drawing on his own experience.

From what I can gauge from the committee’s evidence sessions and from my discussions with stakeholders, some people view the practice as a necessary part of control and management, as Jim Fairlie characterised it. I do not think that there are any obvious alternatives that would be any more palatable.

On the other hand, we have very real concerns, which Jim Fairlie expressed, about the animal welfare implications of putting dogs under ground—implications for not only the wild mammal that the dogs are pursuing, but the terriers themselves.

I have the quote here. Mike Flynn from the SSPCA said:

“I have grave concerns about dogs underground. I see no reason why you would have to put more than one dog down there ... if you get two terriers in a heightened state, they will bite each other—it is not just the fox that they will go for. I have grave concerns about using animals underground, because there is no way to control them.”—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 15 June 2022; c 29.]

That is really concerning.

The one-dog limit that we have proposed aims to strike a balance, but I am open-minded about where we go with that and how people think the matter should be dealt with.

I have mentioned it a couple of times now but, just for clarity, I point out that the principal reason for the licensing scheme being tagged on to two of the exceptions is that we recognise, as Lord Bonomy did, that in certain circumstances the use of two dogs will not enable that lawful activity of flushing to waiting guns. Indeed, he specifically said that terrain—for example, hill ground or thick forests—was one of the reasons that it might not be workable.

In recognition of that, we have introduced the licensing scheme as an exception to an exception. We talk a lot about balance; I want all of us to get to a point at which we have a licensing scheme that is workable and available to those who have no other option. If, say, a farmer needs a licence during a busy lambing period, they should not be unduly burdened by that. At the same time, however, we cannot allow the system to become so weak that we are right back to where we were in 2002, with licences just being applied for readily without anybody knowing why—or, indeed, knowing what is actually happening in the countryside. That is what we need to avoid.

The timings reflect the Scottish Government’s understanding of practice. For example, a farmer might see evidence that there are foxes around. They might be able to undertake control measures with two dogs, but if they cannot, and if there are no other options, they will be able to apply for a 14-day licence to deal with the issue. As we understand it, that is the timescale in which it should be possible to do that. In the longer-term projects that we have observed—including the stoats on Orkney, which are being namechecked a lot today—more time is required. That said, the two-year period is a maximum, not a general rule.

Police Scotland made an important point. It had not been raised with me previously but, now that it has been, I will consider how we can accommodate the training of police dogs.