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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 3 August 2025
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Displaying 692 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Màiri McAllan

I agree. I was about to say that I do not think that that question pertained to the purpose of the bill. I can say that the Government must consider climate change and bake that into all the legislation that we develop, but food policy and the management and welfare of wildlife are two separate issues.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Màiri McAllan

The most important point of consideration was the control element. There is a problem under the 2002 act to do with determining whether something was a flagrant breach of what was intended—that people should not chase and kill a mammal—or whether control was lost and the situation was not deliberate. I want people to be able to tell whether the law is being complied with in a given scenario, and that is much more readily clear when there are two dogs rather than three, four, five, six, seven or eight.

Equally, as I have said, the basis of the bill is about protecting wild mammals, and it is far less likely that a wild mammal will be chased and killed by a dog when there are only two dogs—because the person who is taking them should be able to keep them under control—than it is if there are five, six, seven or eight dogs, which can be lost control of more easily. It is much less easy to tell when those numbers of dogs are chasing and killing.

It is about reducing the opportunity for packs of dogs to chase and kill wild mammals. England and Wales have a two-dog limit, which they have found works successfully.

Taking all those things into account, the two-dog limit was, for us, a reasonable baseline from which to start. As members know, we have, in two circumstances, supplemented it with a licensing scheme where no other methods are available.

10:45  

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Màiri McAllan

Picking up on the previous point, I would just note that the bill makes reference to “preventing” damage, so it is not necessary to wait until damage has been done.

As for the minimum number of dogs, that is dependent on the activity, the land and the issue at hand. At this stage, I am not going to theorise about what would be a suitable number, because there are so many variables that I could not possibly be accurate.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Màiri McAllan

The Bonomy review was a really important part of our development of the terms of the bill, as were two public consultations and, of course, the extensive and deliberately wide-ranging stakeholder consultation that we undertook. We have implemented a lot of what Bonomy recommended, but we decided not to pursue his recommendations on vicarious liability or on the reverse burden of proof. I am happy to go into more detail on that, if the committee would like, but I think that you have already discussed that quite a bit.

I suppose that the two-dog limit was not explicitly recommended by Bonomy, but he said that there was evidence that foxes were being unlawfully chased and killed, and I think that he has subsequently said that the combination of the two-dog limit and the licensing scheme is a workable and proper approach.

In terms of alternative approaches, probably one of the main ones that we considered was whether to seek to amend the 2002 act or to redo it. Some of the feedback that we have had about the clarity that we have achieved via the bill and the way in which it is drafted—albeit that we are at the beginning of the parliamentary process—has justified our approach.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Màiri McAllan

Yes—because there would not be intent behind the activity.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Màiri McAllan

I heard that issue being discussed before. Our position on it is that we are not considering provision of compensation.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Màiri McAllan

I understand what you are saying. We are coming at this on the basis of considering how to make things workable, and that will cover a whole series of issues, including timing.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Màiri McAllan

That is fine.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Màiri McAllan

Because it is a criminal issue, I will make no assumptions about the reasons for hunts going out in the past. However, I am absolutely confident that the bill, once passed, will stop the illegal activity of chasing and killing an animal in Scotland’s countryside and will facilitate legitimate control under strict circumstances.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 June 2022

Màiri McAllan

As I should have made clear in my answer to Karen Adam, the section relates to regulations to give effect to or in pursuit of the bill, not anything outwith its scope.

Perhaps Hazel Reilly might want to add to that.