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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 August 2025
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Displaying 692 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Màiri McAllan

I do not have an answer to that, I am afraid. I am not an expert in—

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Màiri McAllan

Hugh Dignon has just made a good point to me, which is that we have never said that it would be a cover for that—rough shooting.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Màiri McAllan

I do not think that my experience is particularly relevant to my role as a minister taking the bill through Parliament. However, I represent a rural constituency, I live in the heart of the countryside and I observe these things as a matter of course through living where I do.

On the point about YouTube, the only YouTube video on the activity that I have watched is the one that the British Association for Shooting and Conservation helpfully produced and invited me to watch at the Parliament. I suspect that that is the video that my colleagues were referring to.

09:30  

However, we have undertaken substantial stakeholder engagement—as we would with any aspect of the bill. I appreciate that we are talking about rough shooting, but I was just reflecting last night that, since Lord Bonomy published his report on the 2002 act in 2016, this issue and the bill as a whole have been intensely scrutinised: we had Lord Bonomy in front of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee in 2017; there was a public consultation in 2018; a second consultation in 2021; the committee’s own call for evidence on the bill earlier this year; five public and three private committee sessions at stage 1; a stage 1 report; and further correspondence between me and the committee. We then had the debate, the bill was agreed to at stage 1, and today is the third session that you have held specifically on rough shooting, so there has been a huge amount of stakeholder consultation and a great deal of scrutiny.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Màiri McAllan

I think that that was discussed at your last session in which the committee was told that they included lurchers, whippets and other dogs of that kind.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Màiri McAllan

The number of dogs is the principal factor, but, of course, they would not be considered a pack if they were on opposite sides of a field, so the activity is relevant, as the dogs would have to be together.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Màiri McAllan

For me, that would create an inconsistency in policy terms, but I can understand and see why that would be an easier situation for the police evidence-wise. Although I will not put words in the mouth of Police Scotland, I suspect that its concerns about the position as it stands, some of which were expressed last week, relate to the belief that a two-dog limit per event would be easier for the police. Would that be proportionate for the rough shooters? I do not think that it would. Would it create inconsistencies in the bill? Yes. However, things would certainly be easier evidentially.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Màiri McAllan

Of course, in some ways that is hypothetical, but, equally, nobody talked about flushing to guns prior to 2002. We have proof that, after the 2002 act—I know that this was discussed in your round-table session—that became a cover for illegal hunting, so there is form in that regard.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Màiri McAllan

Those are utterly hypothetical questions. Ultimately, it is for the police, whom I have confidence in, to observe what is happening in the countryside and determine what it is. Of course, I want that to be as clear as possible, but I will not entertain increasingly hypothetical situations.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Màiri McAllan

Yes, and I accept that that is already the case. A lot of that is underpinned by the strict regulation of firearms, for example. There is a relationship between the police and those whom they know have firearms and undertake shooting activity in their areas.

I am not going to pretend that Police Scotland has said that everything is cut and dried and straightforward. Specifically, I know that Mr Telford raised some issues about the two-dog limit, which Alasdair Allan raised. However, there will always be challenges with evidence in a rural setting, because of its very nature. The same applies to gathering evidence in a domestic setting: that is not easily corroborated, and things happen out of view. However, I was very pleased with the explanation that came forward from DS Telford about what the police would consider in order to build the picture: the breed of dog; the distance between the dogs; what reasonable steps had been taken to separate any dogs that had joined together; consultations with witnesses; discussions with experts; the seizure of phones; and common sense, which you mentioned.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 30 November 2022

Màiri McAllan

The crux of your point goes back to an exemption that would take rough shooting outwith the scope of the bill. It would be extremely difficult to define rough shooting, but that is a minor point compared with the much bigger points that we have already rehearsed—namely, that a glaring loophole would be created in the bill where the two-dog limit would then apply to everybody else, including farmers trying to protect their lambs from predation, but not to people—