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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 16 October 2025
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Displaying 741 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

I am not sure that “bureaucratic diktat from pen pushers” is a reasonable way to describe the work of NatureScot and others, but I will leave that up to the member. Rachael Hamilton will probably not be surprised by my view on this, given that we debated the amendment that I lodged in the previous session. I said then that I had listened very carefully to the discussions on the licensing period during the committee’s scrutiny.

When I spoke to amendment 158 last week, I said that I had come to the conclusion that allowing some flexibility around the period of time in which the licence’s 14 days may be used was justified. That is why I lodged amendment 158—which, to remind the committee, would see the period of time for which a licence can be granted under section 4 be the original maximum 14 days, but within a period of six consecutive months.

Of course, I have considered Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 243, which would allow the licence to be granted for up to 28 days over six months, but I remain very much of the view that 14 days is the right number for the licence to cover. It allows sufficient flexibility to deal with changes to plans due to bad weather or other unforeseen events while not facilitating any more days of hunting over the period. Having spoken widely with stakeholders, I believe that 14 days is sufficient for the licensed predator control needs of most farms and that 28 days allows too many days of activity under a particular licence, given the very real need to maintain a tight control.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

I will just finish my point. The term “sport” distinguishes between the recreational nature of these pursuits and wildlife management for economic or environmental reasons.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

I was just concluding, but I am happy to take any comments from Edward Mountain.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

That will be in the eye of the beholder.

Amendments 156 and 159 from my colleague Christine Grahame seek to remove the ability of NatureScot to license “a category of persons”. I very much understand the intention to tighten up how licences can be granted. However—we have discussed this a lot this morning—I do not want to create inconsistencies with the wording of the bill, which the two amendments could do, as the approach that we have set out is as set out in the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981.

I will try to cover each of the points that have been made in turn. On the point about “person” and what that can be taken to mean, the law already states that the word “person” would include bodies such as a company or club, so those types of bodies could be granted a licence even if the bill were amended to only include “person”.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

Yes. I was just going to come on to the point about categories. The other reason why that is important is that excluding a category would prevent a situation in which a set of neighbouring farmers, perhaps with hill ground stretching between them—exactly the terrain where Lord Bonomy said the provisions would be required—would be able to do what we have discussed with them: apply for a licence that runs with the terrain, not the individual, over that area of land.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

It would run with the land, not with the individuals. NatureScot would receive an application for an area of land, it would consider the terrain—that being one of the main considerations—and it would determine whether it was suitable to grant a licence over that land.

The point about who would be liable in the case of a breach of conditions is important. That will always be the person or people who are undertaking the activity. Under section 1(4), those undertaking the activity will be everyone involved, not just those who are controlling the dog. As concerns applications for categories of persons, those liable would still be the people undertaking the activity. Likewise, if a farmer had applied for an agency to undertake the work, it would be in the first instance the agency—the folks on the ground who were undertaking the activity—who would be liable for any breach of licence conditions.

I would add that there are ancillary provisions in the bill that might catch the farmer in those circumstances if they had knowingly permitted illegal activity to take place on their land.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

I would be happy to meet you to explain it further.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

That might be the case in certain circumstances, but it would be for—

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

Yes. [Interruption.]

I do not appreciate the whispering across the room.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Màiri McAllan

It was 205 and 232.