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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 September 2025
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Displaying 846 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 December 2022

Stephanie Callaghan

I have three questions. Minister, you have touched already on monitoring, evaluation and outcomes. The bones of it seem to be that we are good at asking people what they want, but we are perhaps not so good at asking, “How was it for you?”, even though that is what matters to people.

It has been suggested that we could adapt the Northern Ireland, England and Wales national survey of bereaved carers. Could you tell us quite precisely how successful we have been with regard to measurement and evaluation, and could you perhaps define what you mean when you talk about consistency and quality?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 December 2022

Stephanie Callaghan

I want to pick up on that. Housing first was a revelation—we could see it really changing people’s lives with wraparound care and seamless joined-up services. The bigger picture is that public health approach at a population level. There are housing and homelessness services, but there are all those other local services that are closely related to social care, such as those relating to mental health, drugs, alcohol issues and so on. Given that, why is the NCS the way forward in order to get that seamless joined-up care that people are looking for and that really matters to them?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 December 2022

Stephanie Callaghan

I am grateful to you for allowing me to come back in, convener.

Minister, last week, we had Mark Hazelwood from the Scottish Partnership for Palliative Care, who talked about the fact that not everybody will recover and that one in three hospital beds is used by someone who is in their last year of life. The partnership would like two specific things to be included in the bill. It wants to have something in the bill about people with irreversible health conditions through illness or old age and who are approaching the end of life. Secondly, the partnership wants something about interventions that are about preventing or delaying the development of care needs and reducing care needs and support for those with irreversible health conditions. It feels like end-of-life issues are not included in the bill, even though that is something that we will all face at some point, and the issue is becoming larger proportionately as the demographics change.

Will you consider changes to the principles of the bill to include end-of-life issues?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 20 December 2022

Stephanie Callaghan

One of the barriers to that seems to be the idea of incorporating community health primary care services and taking that kind of public health approach. If we are saying that no health staff will be transferred into the national care service, can that really be achieved?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Stephanie Callaghan

Will you give us a couple of examples of the type of detail that you would like to see?

10:00  

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Stephanie Callaghan

I will wind back a bit. How do we ensure that people who are receiving support are kept central to the evaluations that we are talking about? Would the national performance framework be helpful, and would it be part of that in your view?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Stephanie Callaghan

My first question is to Henry Simmons and Dr Manji. Are there parts of the bill that you would like to be enacted immediately and are there other provisions about which you think that more time should be taken to co-design them?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Stephanie Callaghan

I was panicking there, convener, because I have two questions.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Stephanie Callaghan

I could not agree more, and I think that most people will feel exactly the same.

My next question is for both Susan Webster and Mark Hazelwood. Is there anything specific that you would like to see in the bill to support what you have been talking about?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Stephanie Callaghan

I will go to Mark Hazelwood first, because he has mentioned a couple of times having the data to be able to make decisions. I realise that we have a wide range of experiences here—different types of people with different challenges—and we have always spoken about lived experience being central to the national care service. Across the board, for different people in different situations, what should we consider measuring and how do we measure that? What are the things that really matter, which we should focus on?