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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 31 October 2025
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Displaying 2173 contributions

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COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Communication of Public Health Information Inquiry

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Yes. The highest-risk people are stuck. Is there a need for the general public to get a better understanding, through public health messaging and improving people’s literacy and understanding of what we are trying to achieve, so that nobody has the feeling that everybody else has moved on but they are still in the same place?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Communication of Public Health Information Inquiry

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

That comfortably leads me on to where I wanted to go. I will give my general sense from today’s evidence session. Right at the start of the pandemic, everybody got behind the Covid response—we all understood it, everybody was at risk and the message was simple. We started to change it, because things were moving and evolving. The message became more complicated, and it became more difficult to have that one-size-fits-all approach, so we tried to fragment it. Then we came into the later stages, where we got competing voices. The hospitality industry wanted things opened up. People wanted flights opened up. They wanted life to go back to normal and get their businesses moving. In among all that, people had fatigue and wanted to move on. However you, the clinically vulnerable—sorry; I am trying to get the right phrasing—

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

A lot of the stuff that we have talked about has been based on hunting foxes with dogs, which is where a lot of the controversy has been centred. However, we heard this morning from Sara Shaw and William Telford that the controversy also spreads into other areas. What impact will the scheme have on the wider review of species licensing to which the Scottish Government has committed?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

We have moved forward a wee bit quicker than I was thinking we would. To take a wee step back, I will quickly ask Michael Clancy for clarification on part 1, section 1 of the bill, which says:

“A person commits an offence if ... the person hunts a wild mammal using a dog”.

From the Law Society’s point of view, is there clarity on the difference between a person who is walking a dog and a person who is using a dog? Do you have a concern about that specification?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Sorry, can I interrupt you for one wee second? I am really conscious of time; I may bring William Telford into this as well. I want this to be really quick—I am sorry.

Let us imagine that William Telford goes out and finds three guys coming out of the back of a white van with three lurchers and the guys say, “Yeah, we were just walking our dogs.” Does the court have the discretion to say, “No. We find, on the balance of probability, that you were coursing hares”? Can the law do that?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

We will come on to licensing in more detail, but are you comfortable with the difference between the exception for environmental benefit and licensing for ordinary wildlife management, as the bill stands at the moment?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Okay. Thank you.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Robbie, I made a point to you earlier about the timescale for a licence. Rachael Hamilton mentioned a period of 14 days, as opposed to two years, for environmental licences—someone would have 14 days in which to deal with a fox. From the point of view of a practitioner or land manager, a 14-day timescale for trying to deal with a predatory fox is too prescriptive and too tight. They already know that the fox is coming out of the woods. Are they going to wait until it starts killing lambs? I could go through all the scenarios, but you know them all, so I do not need to translate them for you again.

How do you feel about the licence for fox control, in particular? I do not share Rachael Hamilton’s point of view that we need more guns in the countryside, because walked packs can do the job anyway. What is your view on having an extended seasonal licence or an annual licence for specific walked packs to try to control foxes in particular areas?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

It seems to highlight that we need something that is a bit more robust. Would that be fair? We are trying to get at the distinction between somebody who is out walking the dog when the dog takes off and starts chasing a rabbit or hare and somebody who deliberately sets out with a dog to hunt animals.

Clearly, as William Telford said, there is a loophole—it is easy for someone to say that they were just walking their dog and it took off to chase a hare. However, I know that guys go out with lurchers and greyhounds in a specific way.

Can we find another way of making that part of the law more robust without including rabbits? That is what I’m trying to get to.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Okay—that gives us something to think about.

I come to Robbie Kernahan. Is NatureScot content with the exception for environmental benefit, from the perspective of your wildlife management schemes? People can get a licence for up to two years for environmental benefit but, as the bill stands, they will have 14 days in which to control a fox that is killing lambs. What is your perspective on that?