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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 June 2025
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Displaying 2089 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

I will—because it had not occurred to me at all—go back to something that Ariane has just raised. You talked about recording numbers. When I had a licence to control ravens, we knew that the purpose of the bag number that we were allowed every year—which was increased—was for us to know that numbers were limited. With beavers for example, we know more or less what the national numbers are. If we are to record the number of foxes that are killed, is there concern that foxes are becoming a rare species in Scotland?

11:30  

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

I will press you on that point. Specifically, are we talking about guys who ferret rabbits and then allow lurchers to kill them? Is that what you are trying to stop?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

I will go back a bit, because I forgot to ask you something earlier. In section 24, which is titled, “Crown application: criminal offences”, subsection (1) says:

“Nothing in this Act makes the Crown criminally liable.”

What does that mean?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Thank you. I just wanted us to be clear on that point.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Okay.

I will look at this from a sheep farmer’s point of view, given my background as a sheep farmer. To a sheep farmer, serious damage is when a fox is coming in and lifting lambs—killing lambs and taking tails and ears as trinkets for cubs, killing lambs to feed young cubs or just killing for its own food. For a sheep farmer, 10 per cent is a colossal figure to lose to a fox kill. Having been on the receiving end of that kind of killing, I am well aware of the distress that it causes not only to the lambing percentage, but to the shepherd or sheep farmer who has to go out every morning and deal with those kills.

One thing that slightly concerns me about this area relates to the licence being granted. To me, serious damage is anything when a fox is predating hens, for example. We will come on to environmental issues later. Who decides what “serious damage” is? If NatureScot comes back to the person who is in the position of looking after the livestock in their charge, whatever it is, and says that it does not consider something to be serious damage, how do we come to a balance?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Another thing that was mentioned was getting a licence for environmental reasons, which would have to be done under a scheme. Again, I will give my personal experience. I watched wading bird numbers plummet with the increased number of ravens. Nobody was paying attention to that, but the by-product of my being able to control ravens to protect sheep was that it helped to maintain wading bird numbers. Who is the best person to tell NatureScot of an environmental or ecological issue on land that it is managing? Who makes that decision?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

There will have to be co-operation and trust between NatureScot and land managers.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Okay. I am slightly confused, now. There is a genuine method of controlling a warren. If a warren is sitting beside an arable plantation, people will want to clear it out, to avoid crop damage. Quite often, a keeper will have, for example, a couple of lurchers or a terrier. Ferrets will go down and will flush the rabbit out. With the best will in the world, rabbits can come out three or four at a time, and the dogs will get them. No one is going to stand there with a gun and go bang, bang, bang, because that is just not feasible. Would that become illegal under the bill?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Thank you, convener. I would like to come back in later, on the timing of licences.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

That is my point—they are not really breaking the law by deliberately allowing a fox to escape.

I will continue with the example of foxes, because that is where a lot of the concern lies. People are not breaking the law if a fox is killed before it escapes, because the purpose—as you have just said—is to prevent the hunt. I fully understand the problem that we have if a fox escapes and people shout, “Tally-ho! We’re off!” and they start chasing the fox around the countryside. Would that problem not be alleviated by having more guns and making sure that there is a minimum number of guns so that the fox never gets past the line of guns? Would that not cover that problem?