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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 May 2025
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Displaying 3378 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

An issue that has been raised in evidence by some witnesses is the fact that quite a number of former police officers work in the PIRC. There are two views on that. One is that it brings experience and knowledge to the function of the PIRC. The other is that it perhaps involves a bit of a conflict. We have heard both sides of that argument. We know that former officers go on to lots of different roles. Do you have a particular view on that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

One of the things that I am interested in—I sound like a broken record—is what it is that brings officers and staff into the complaints and conduct space in the first place. I am interested in what it is about their role, their environment or their circumstances that brings them into the process.

We took interesting evidence from Police Scotland yesterday, when its representatives spoke about their awareness that the circumstances and factors could potentially be shifting. Assault allegations are always going to be made against officers and potentially staff, but yesterday’s witnesses spoke in an interesting way about some other issues, such as domestic abuse and the emergence of more sexualised behaviour by officers—a couple of examples spring to mind.

I am interested in what sits behind officers coming to the attention of complaints and conduct, and I am interested in whether you have come across the reasons for that. You have done so many inspections, including on mental health. Have you looked at that as part of your work?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That is interesting, and it is good to hear that you have some work planned around domestic abuse later in the year.

Rona Mackay wants to ask a follow-up on that point.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I have a final follow-up question. Notwithstanding the timescales that are potentially involved where there is a criminal case followed by a misconduct process, do you think that the bill goes far enough to address the issue of timescales? That is quite a big question, but it comes up all the time, both generally in relation to complaints and conduct processes, and in the context of the bill.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

We move to questions from Rona Mackay and then Pauline McNeill.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

We are coming up to the end of our time, but I have a final question that relates to the provision in the bill regarding hearings related to gross misconduct being held in public.

You have done a lot of work to look at mental health and wellbeing, not just with regard to the demand on police officers and staff from that growing area of operational delivery but with regard to their own health and wellbeing.

Should that provision be enacted, what needs to be put in place to make sure that the mental wellbeing of those involved is considered and prioritised? I am interested in your views on that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you—that is very helpful.

It has been a really informative session, and I thank you for your time. We are a wee bit over time, so I will finish things there.

11:05 Meeting continued in private until 11:11.  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Our next panel of witnesses is from Police Scotland. I welcome to the meeting Alan Speirs, the deputy chief constable, professionalism, strategy and engagement; Helen Harrison, chief superintendent and head of the professional standards department; and Nicky Page, head of human resources. Thank you all for providing written evidence to the committee.

I intend to allow about 80 minutes for this evidence session. I will begin with a question that I put to our witnesses from the Scottish Police Authority. Witnesses will probably be aware that we have heard evidence from members of the public who have described what seems to have been an inconsistent and, in some cases, unacceptable standard of response when they made a complaint to Police Scotland about the conduct of officers. In addition, we have heard that, when police officers are the subject of a complaint, the way that they are treated falls short of what is expected. One officer, of whom witnesses will probably be aware of, shared his very distressing story with us.

Police Scotland has a lot of work to do internally on handling complaints; that is important because the majority of complaints are probably dealt with internally. I want to ask about the provisions of the bill and about what is required to improve the system of complaints handling. Is there an internal process whereby learning from complaints handling is used? Is there work to monitor complaints trends and issues that arise from them, and is any measuring done so that action can be taken to make changes and so that you can ultimately intervene in complaints of a type that reoccur? Those questions are about quality assurance and the response when complaints are made internally. I ask DCC Speirs to start.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you. I will now bring in other members.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

We have about 10 minutes left. I invite Fulton MacGregor to ask questions, followed by Russell Findlay.