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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 24 August 2025
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Displaying 3543 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 13 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Our next item of business is to conclude our evidence-taking as part of our pre-budget scrutiny. I am pleased to be joined by Angela Constance, who is the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs, and her officials Mr Don McGillivray, who is the director of safer communities, and Ms Gillian Russell, who is director of justice. Thank you for joining us.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2 and to the written submissions from a range of other organisations, which are set out in the annexe to paper 2. We are, as ever, grateful to everyone who sent in their views.

I intend to allow around 90 minutes for this session and I ask the cabinet secretary to make a short opening statement.

Criminal Justice Committee

Scottish Biometrics Commissioner Annual Report 2023-24

Meeting date: 13 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That was fascinating.

To come back to Scotland, as it were, I will pick up on a point that we discussed during your previous session with us. You suggested that there might be potential to expand your remit to include the prison estate because of the extensive biometric data that exists in that part of the justice sector. Will you give us an update on that work? Have you been able to move that forward?

Criminal Justice Committee

Scottish Biometrics Commissioner Annual Report 2023-24

Meeting date: 13 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That was a really interesting update. I commend the annual report, which has a lot of interesting detail that reflects the breadth and detail of the work that has been undertaken this past year.

You have spoken a lot about Police Scotland in the context of the assurance review work and the recommendations that have come out of it, and some of the compliance work that you have done, which is really interesting.

I am very interested, however, in a letter that you sent to Police Scotland in October 2023, with regard to the DESC pilot. The level of detail in the letter is to be commended. Essentially, you set out some concerns that you have with regard to—I will not even attempt to sound as though I have a technical brain—an aspect of Police Scotland’s cloud storage. I am sure that other members will want to come in on that point but I am interested in any update that you have with regard to the specific issue that has been flagged. The fact that you are able to pick up something such as that and take it forward really reflects the value of your commissioner role.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 13 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I thank you and your officials very much for your time, cabinet secretary.

We will have a short suspension to allow for the changeover of witnesses.

11:07 Meeting suspended.  

11:14 On resuming—  

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I am mindful of the time. I will let the witnesses respond to that, but there has been a lot of discussion of the whole-system approach, which both our witnesses have spoken about at length, and reference was made earlier to the PCS report. Therefore, given what we have already covered, there would be value in written follow-up responses.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I take it that that makes it quite difficult to put a figure on it. You spoke about unseen costs—a lot of what you have set out are impacts or outcomes that I imagine are quite difficult to quantify in budgetary terms. From what you are saying, presumably there is quite a significant budgetary impact, in relation to not only the practical aspects that we have spoken about but some of the things that are not quite so obvious. Is that fair to say?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Give your voice a break. Thank you for that helpful opening scene setting.

I will pick up on the prison population, which is pretty much uppermost in all our minds. We recognise the significance of the challenges that that places on the Scottish Prison Service. At 25 October, the prison population was sitting at 8,226, and, as you say, it is expected to rise, with several prisons already over capacity. What are the implications for the Prison Service arising from those increasing numbers—specifically the budgetary implications that we are looking at today? I know from your submission that there are practical things, such as the cost of food, social care, healthcare and so on. It would be interesting to hear a wee bit more detail on that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That is very interesting.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Liam Kerr has a supplementary question.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Gosh, there was a lot in that answer, but it was very helpful.

I will bring in John Logue before l ask a follow-up question about multiyear funding.