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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 8 May 2025
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Displaying 3377 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

National Performance Framework

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Our next item of business is consideration of a paper from the clerk on revisions to the Scottish Government’s revised national performance framework and national outcomes. I refer members to paper 3.

If members have no comments, is the committee content to note the developments in and around the review of the national performance framework?

Members indicated agreement.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That is really interesting. I was going to pick up on the situation with the community custody units that you have just mentioned.

However, I think that what you are describing is a real need for—and the importance of—probably quite specialist training, depending on where staff are deployed and their roles and responsibilities. I presume that that will, as you have said, mean quite a significant abstraction from day-to-day business that you will have to cover, both in terms of managing the workforce and covering the costs. Is it fair to say that that is a really important aspect of managing the prison population, particularly given the challenges with numbers at the moment?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

As members have no more questions—and in the interests of your voices and vocal cords—we will bring this evidence session to a close. Thank you very much indeed for your time. It has been a really interesting session.

I suspend the meeting briefly to allow our witnesses to leave.

12:26 Meeting suspended.  

12:27 On resuming—  

Criminal Justice Committee

National Performance Framework

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That completes our business in public today. We now move into private session.

12:28 Meeting continued in private until 12:49.  

Criminal Justice Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Good morning, and welcome to the 33rd meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received apologies from Pauline McNeill.

Agenda item 1 is a decision on taking business in private. Does the committee agree to take item 4 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

We have about half an hour left and we still have four members who wish to come in, so I politely ask for succinct questions and responses.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I will bring the evidence session to a close. We have overrun a bit but that discussion was valuable. I thank both our witnesses for attending. We will have a short suspension to allow for a changeover of witnesses.

11:25 Meeting suspended.  

11:31 On resuming—  

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I am mindful of the time. I will let the witnesses respond to that, but there has been a lot of discussion of the whole-system approach, which both our witnesses have spoken about at length, and reference was made earlier to the PCS report. Therefore, given what we have already covered, there would be value in written follow-up responses.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I take it that that makes it quite difficult to put a figure on it. You spoke about unseen costs—a lot of what you have set out are impacts or outcomes that I imagine are quite difficult to quantify in budgetary terms. From what you are saying, presumably there is quite a significant budgetary impact, in relation to not only the practical aspects that we have spoken about but some of the things that are not quite so obvious. Is that fair to say?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Give your voice a break. Thank you for that helpful opening scene setting.

I will pick up on the prison population, which is pretty much uppermost in all our minds. We recognise the significance of the challenges that that places on the Scottish Prison Service. At 25 October, the prison population was sitting at 8,226, and, as you say, it is expected to rise, with several prisons already over capacity. What are the implications for the Prison Service arising from those increasing numbers—specifically the budgetary implications that we are looking at today? I know from your submission that there are practical things, such as the cost of food, social care, healthcare and so on. It would be interesting to hear a wee bit more detail on that.