The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Audrey Nicoll
Our next item of business is consideration of the forthcoming Scottish Fire and Rescue Service reforms. As members may already be aware, we expect the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to publish its proposals in the new year. Today, we have an opportunity to hear from the Fire Brigades Union its views on the proposed reforms. I intend to allow up to 60 minutes for this session.
I refer members to papers 5 and 6. I also note that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service’s annual report and accounts for 2024-25 have now been laid before Parliament; the clerks have circulated a copy to members in the normal manner.
I welcome, from the Fire Brigades Union, Colin Brown, executive council member for Scotland, and John McKenzie, Scottish regional secretary. You are both very welcome. I invite you to make some short opening remarks—over to you, Colin.
11:15Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Audrey Nicoll
Oh no! [Laughter.]
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Audrey Nicoll
Thank you—there was a lot for us to think about in your opening statement.
I was going to ask you about the service delivery review and what may come from it that you feel may be positive. However, I want to pick up on the reduction in firefighter numbers that you mentioned. I am interested in probing that a little more and looking further at the reasons for it.
A lot of organisations are seeing a change in their staff numbers as a result of all sorts of different things, such as the introduction of technology, artificial intelligence and innovation—and, in your case, fewer fires. Can you expand on where the cuts are coming from?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Audrey Nicoll
Good morning, and welcome to the 33rd meeting in 2025 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies this morning. Fulton MacGregor joins us online, and we are also joined by Pam Gosal.
Our first item of business is a decision on whether to consider in private at this meeting and at future meetings all the evidence heard on, and any follow-up correspondence or action from, our consideration of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service delivery review. Do we agree to do so?
Members indicated agreement.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Audrey Nicoll
I think that Agnes Tolmie wants to come in before you move on.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Audrey Nicoll
I will pause you there and bring in Katy Clark. There are also one or two follow-up questions, including questions from Pam Gosal.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Audrey Nicoll
I will have to ask for your question, please.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Audrey Nicoll
I ask you to select one or two of the witnesses to respond, because we are running out of time.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Audrey Nicoll
I will come back to you for that later, Katy. I will bring in Liam Kerr first to keep the order of questions right in my head.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 3 December 2025
Audrey Nicoll
Do you want to come back in, Liam?