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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 28 August 2025
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Displaying 3543 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Audrey Nicoll

I will bring in Katy Clark, and then Fulton MacGregor.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Audrey Nicoll

That is very good to hear, because, like you, I am very interested in the process of children coming into custody. I am pretty confident that, when that can be avoided and an alternative option can be utilised, Police Scotland uses those alternative routes. It is interesting to hear about the conference focusing on that particular issue.

11:45  

I have another couple of questions. I go back to the provision in the bill on secure care being the default for under-18s. Members, including Fulton MacGregor, asked about that age being a starting point. I am interested in whether one of the reasons why the Scottish Government is not yet extending that provision to 18 to 20-year-olds, for example, is that, if we look at the cohorts of young people who are offenders, we see that there are, I understand, currently more than 150 18 to 20-year-olds, as opposed to five 16 and 17-year-olds, who are held in prison. An extension would have significant implications for resourcing and the availability of physical accommodation. Might that be challenging, or will the Government commit to broadening the age range of young people who go into secure care in the future?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Audrey Nicoll

That brings us to the end of our time with the witnesses. We will have a short suspension to allow them to leave.

11:53 Meeting suspended.  

11:55 On resuming—  

Criminal Justice Committee

Access to Court Transcripts

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Audrey Nicoll

You are right. We have not got that detail yet, but we can certainly ask for it.

Are members happy with the actions that are set out in the paper? We can follow up on that aspect.

Members indicated agreement.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Audrey Nicoll

It might also go back to our earlier discussion on individualised placement and risk assessment. There are some caveats to what you have clearly articulated, given some of the evidence that previous witnesses shared with us on the need to consider the individual’s maturity and other factors when considering placement.

Criminal Justice Committee

Access to Court Transcripts

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Audrey Nicoll

That is a good suggestion.

As no one else has any comments, members will note that there is a suggestion in the paper about our follow-up action. I think that we all very much welcome the moves to explore the possibility of a pilot to support access to transcripts for complainers in sexual offences cases.

I want to highlight whether it would be feasible for the delivery of a pilot to be incorporated into the committee’s stage 1 consideration of the victims, witnesses and justice reform bill, which is due to be introduced shortly. As Rona Mackay has rightly flagged, we can share correspondence appropriately with external organisations.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Our next item of business is consideration of evidence on the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome to the meeting Angela Constance, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs; Natalie Don, the Minister for Children, Young People and Keeping the Promise; and, from the Scottish Government, Catriona Dalrymple, who is the deputy director of community justice, Tom McNamara, who is the head of youth justice and children’s hearings, and Barry McCaffrey, who is a lawyer. We give a warm welcome to you all.

I take this opportunity to welcome both ministers to their new roles and to thank the former cabinet secretary, Keith Brown, for his engagement with the committee over recent years.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I intend to allow up to 90 minutes for this evidence session. On that note, I invite the cabinet secretary and/or the minister to make some brief opening remarks.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you very much, minister. As usual, I will start the questions and then bring in members.

Minister, in your opening remarks, you mentioned some of the witnesses who we have already heard from and some of the very helpful evidence that we have heard. I will start by looking at the issues around age. One of the main provisions of the bill is that people under the age of 18 are no longer placed in a YOI or prison. The committee heard evidence from a range of witnesses that there should perhaps be more scope for an individualised assessment process to determine whether and where a child or young person should be detained. That would be based on factors such as their development, maturity and, perhaps, their neurological development. Aside from the issue around resources, are there any other particular barriers to being able to provide an individualised assessment process for children who are entering the criminal justice system and, potentially, a secure environment?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Audrey Nicoll

I thank Linda Allan very much for coming along to today’s meeting. We appreciate your time.

There will be a short suspension while we change witnesses.

10:56 Meeting suspended.  

11:01 On resuming—  

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Audrey Nicoll

So, the panel broadly welcomes the bill as a fairly good start, but with some caveats. On that note, I will move straight to members’ questions.