Seòmar agus comataidhean

I take it that, as far as the budget is concerned, that work will continue.

Our next item of business is the start of our pre-budget scrutiny of the Scottish Government’s 2024-25 budget. We have two evidence panels today, and I intend to run each for up to 90 minutes.

I am pleased to welcome our first panel of witnesses. They are Deputy Chief Constable Jane Connors, crime and operational support; David Page, deputy chief officer; and James Gray, chief financial officer, all from Police Scotland. We also have with us Lynn Brown, who is the chief executive of the Scottish Police Authority, and, from the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, Ross Haggart, chief officer; Stuart Stevens, deputy chief officer; and John Thomson, acting director of finance and procurement.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2, and I thank the witnesses who provided written submissions. I also thank the Scottish Police Federation and the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents for their written submissions, which were received after we put out our meeting papers. I also thank the Fire Brigades Union for its submission, which, likewise, was received after the papers were published. Those submissions have all been sent separately to members and are now published online.

Given the size of the panel of witnesses, I ask everyone to be succinct as possible in their questions and answers. If they can, members should direct their questions to one or more of the witnesses, at least initially. I invite each organisation that is present to try to field just one person to respond, initially.

Having said that, I will begin with an open question to get the evidence session under way.

During last year’s budget scrutiny, all three organisations that are here today painted a challenging picture of the state of their budget, although that was relieved in part by extra money that was allocated by the Scottish Government. I invite Police Scotland, the SPA and then the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to tell us briefly how the finances for 2023-24 have worked. What financial situation have you been working in, and what concerns or commentary do you have as we approach the 2024-25 settlement? I go first to Mr Gray.

Lynn Brown, I will come to you next, if you want to add anything to what we have already heard.

We come to Fulton MacGregor.

I will bring in Rona Mackay, then Pauline McNeill.

I will come in. It is important that we understand where processes have had room for improvement, to date, but I am quite keen for us to use the session to look at how that is done going forward rather than looking back. It is absolutely appropriate that we look at where the issues are, but I would like us to focus on where improvement and changes can be made.

Good morning, and welcome to the 20th meeting in 2023 of the Criminal Justice Committee. This is the committee’s last meeting before the summer recess, so there are some smiles around the room this morning.

We have received no apologies this morning.

The first item of business is to decide whether to take items 4 and 5 in private. Do we agree to do so?

Members indicated agreement.

Our next item of business is consideration of the responses to police officer and staff suicides. This is a very important and sensitive subject, and I am pleased that we have found time before the recess to hold this session.

Before we begin, I want to thank the families and friends of officers who have spoken to some members of the committee about their experiences.

I am very pleased to welcome our witnesses to the committee. Stewart Carle is general secretary of the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents. Andy Shanks is deputy procurator fiscal, specialist casework, and head of the Scottish fatalities investigation unit of the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. Assistant Chief Constable Gary Ritchie leads Police Scotland’s partnerships, prevention and community wellbeing division, and Katy Miller is Police Scotland’s director of people and development. Fiona McQueen is chair of the Scottish Police Authority’s people committee. David Threadgold is chair of the Scottish Police Federation. I extend a warm welcome to you all.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2, and I thank the witnesses who provided additional written submissions.

The session will run for about 90 minutes. Given the size of the panel, I ask everyone to be succinct in their questions and answers, if possible. I ask that members direct their questions to one or more of the witnesses, at least initially, and then we will see how we go.

I will begin with an open question for all our witnesses. We have been advised that it is anticipated that about four officers per year take their own lives. However, at the moment, there is no formal data collection on those numbers and there have been, I believe, no fatal accident inquiries held into the circumstances to date. That is an issue for some members of the committee.

I have two key questions. First, does that concern you? Secondly, what are the main issues that need to be addressed, or the main processes that need to be improved, in relation to how we prevent or respond to police officer and staff suicide?

Thank you very much. That is a helpful update. I am sure that we will come back to that.

I will come in on that to provide a bit of clarity. In my opening question, I made reference to an indicative number, which I think came from at least one, if not two, of the submissions that we received, which said that it was anticipated that there were around four deaths by suicide per year. However, that was not a firm figure—it was the anticipated number. I put that on the record. ACC Ritchie referred to it in his response. That is where the figure came from.