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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 2 February 2026
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Displaying 804 contributions

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Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Gaza

Meeting date: 2 November 2023

Angus Robertson

There is a lot in Ms Forbes’s questions. First, on her observations about parents and children, the situation is heartbreaking, as is the feeling of powerlessness. I think that we have to ask ourselves how many children have to die before it stops, because it cannot go on forever. At some point, all conflicts—to my knowledge—come to an end, no matter how appalling or complex.

We might think back to situations such as those in South Africa or Northern Ireland in which resolution was thought to be impossible or unimaginable, or very far off. Indeed, I think back to efforts in the 1990s regarding the middle east. Again, that was thought to be unimaginable at the time. The international community needs to look at itself in the mirror and ask whether enough has been done between then and now. I think that we all have to be self-critical—self-evidently, not enough has been done. The current situation is an unresolved conflict, and there is more that we can do.

What can a small country of 5 million people in northern Europe do in such a circumstance? First, one should be conscious that one has agency. We might think of some of the most testing conflicts in which there have been peace processes—I am thinking, for example, of the role of Norway or of Finland, where we recently saw the passing of President Martti Ahtisaari, who played a big role in peace processes. We might think of the roles that were played in countries such as Sri Lanka, and see that these northern European nations—indeed, including our own—have been host to meetings that have sought to further peace processes, such as the talks in St Andrews in relation to Northern Ireland.

I have some experience myself in that area, having hosted the first ever peace talks outside the former Soviet Union involving Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia. I think that it is true to say that Scotland can offer something, even if it is just a place for people to meet in private or in other circumstances.

The member asked about people and about capability. We need to be conscious that we have people with very significant experience in this area—not least Mark Muller, whom many members will know because of his role in Beyond Borders Scotland, which works out of Traquair house in the Borders, and his involvement with UN conflict resolution. We have very deep and capable academic expertise in the relevant area. Recently, the Scottish Council on Global Affairs, which involves internationally well-respected academics in the field of international relations in peace and security, was founded.

A wide sector of organisations wish to be supportive and helpful. That can only work if the people who are involved in a particular conflict realise that the time has come for peace. Prime Minister Netanyahu does not think that; he thinks that now is “a time for war”—that is how he put it, quoting the Bible. We can wish and call for peace and ceasefires; however, unfortunately, if those calls are ignored, the killing, the dying and the loss of children to lots of parents will continue. Those people deserve better.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Gaza

Meeting date: 2 November 2023

Angus Robertson

The offer of help and support for potential refugees from the conflict was outlined in a detailed letter from Shirley-Anne Somerville to the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, with a view to initiating such conversations—to get officials from the Scottish Government and the Home Office, and others, into discussions to begin the process of considering how one might manage and best do such a thing.

Mr Cameron is absolutely right. There is a context, in as much as we have experience in all that, which is a good thing. However, every situation that involves the arrival of refugees is, by its very nature, different. One of the big differences between this conflict and the conflict in Ukraine is that, in Ukraine, people who were living in non-occupied territories had a way out. That is not the case for people in Gaza—they are not able to leave. Nobody, therefore, anticipates any sudden and dramatic movement of people. In fact, over the years and decades, Governments in the region have been clear that they do not want the displacement of Palestinians outside the west bank and the Gaza strip. We are therefore right to say to colleagues in UK Government departments that we wish to begin those technical discussions. I hope that that offer will be taken up and that those discussions can take place, because they should take place.

09:45  

In the immediate period, given the scale of casualties and the inability of the health system in Gaza to deal with them, it has to be a priority for everybody to try to help and support, in the first instance, the Egyptian authorities and health system to treat the most seriously injured casualties who cannot be treated in Gaza. The Egyptians have set up an emergency medical facility very close to the Rafah border crossing to treat injured people close to where they are, but there may be very serious cases where advanced medical intervention could be better provided by other countries, which might include our own. In addition to any preparations for helping refugees, we should be alive to that, because we have an excellent health service with considerable experience. We should do our best to help people who are in need of medical support, as well as those who seek refuge.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Gaza

Meeting date: 2 November 2023

Angus Robertson

The First Minister has spoken in person to the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and Lord Ahmad, who is Minister of State for the Middle East, North Africa, South Asia and United Nations, about those questions. The committee and the country are aware that the First Minister has family who are trapped in Gaza, together with others who have a connection to Scotland, the UK and other countries.

There has been correspondence with the UK Government, and there has been correspondence between the Scottish Government and the Israeli embassy and with the Palestinian representative office in the United Kingdom. The Scottish Government’s positions in relation to the unconditional condemnation of Hamas, the right of Israel to self-defence, the support of international humanitarian law, the call for a ceasefire and the call for the support of international organisations to provide necessary aid to the people of Gaza have all been communicated to all those who I mentioned, and we will continue to do so.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Gaza

Meeting date: 2 November 2023

Angus Robertson

The first step is to have intense points of contact with both communities. As members will be aware, the First Minister has visited the synagogue in Giffnock and has also been to a number of mosques. Initiatives are being supported via Interfaith Scotland to bring together not just the Jewish and Muslim faith leaders but those of Christian and other denominations. We are communicating with them intensively to work out what can be done.

As I have raised with my colleagues, I am mindful that various faith communities’ high and holy days are approaching in the weeks and months ahead. We must ensure that our communities are able to celebrate important days in their religious calendars without any fear or concern. We must therefore ensure that we talk to them as much as we can do—as a Government, but also as parliamentarians and community leaders in our own right. I look to all committee members, and all colleagues across the parties in the Scottish Parliament, to play a role in that. Notwithstanding the severity of the situation, and the challenges that we know people face, we must remain focused on doing everything that we can to maintain the best community relations that we can achieve. Sadly, current international examples illustrate such relations being tested very sorely.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Gaza

Meeting date: 2 November 2023

Angus Robertson

You are absolutely correct that the international community is concerned about the potential for widening an already appalling situation, and you are right to point to the risks of escalation in Lebanon and Israel. The feeling is that, every day, the shooting between Hezbollah and the Israeli Defense Forces is ratcheting up. Yesterday, the Yemeni armed forces launched missiles in the direction of Israel, and other organisations in and around Israel will be close to the Iranian Government. International Governments—not least that of the United States of America, which is able to exercise significant diplomatic and military presence—are focused on ensuring that the conflict does not escalate more widely. The Scottish Government does not have a direct locus in that: foreign affairs, defence and security are matters for the United Kingdom Government.

Our position would be to support UK diplomatic efforts and those of the international community to do everything to ensure that there is not a widening of the conflict. I do not need to tell this committee, nor anybody watching the proceedings, that the situation in Gaza, the west bank and Israel has been long and troubled and previous wars have involved neighbouring countries. The risks are in plain sight.

We would support anything that can be done to help avoid an escalation and we encourage those with a locus and an ability to do so to emphasise restraint on all parties. We would welcome that.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Gaza

Meeting date: 2 November 2023

Angus Robertson

I would have to discuss the detail of which organisations we have had and continue to have links with beyond the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, which is the principal agency for the international community.

We all appreciate that, because of the extreme nature of the circumstance and the extreme distress in which people in Gaza find themselves, it is primarily UNRWA, the UN agency, that has the capability. We should put on the record that UNRWA is also having to pay an incredibly high price for its efforts on the ground. I think that I am right in saying that, since the beginning of the recent conflict, more than 70 members of UNRWA staff have died trying to maintain the places of safety that they have and to get supplies to the warehouses to be distributed. That is why our principal focus is on UNRWA, which has launched a flash appeal.

However, we will keep under constant review our relationship with other charities and third sector organisations, in particular those with which we have an established relationship. We will try to ensure that taxpayers’ money is spent as well as it can possibly be spent in such circumstances. I am sure that people will welcome the fact that we and others are doing what we can to support the UN and other agencies to do what they can on the ground to help people who do not have food or drinking water, who often do not have shelter and many of whom now do not have hope. We need to do everything that we possibly can and we intend to continue doing so.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Gaza

Meeting date: 2 November 2023

Angus Robertson

The First Minister wrote to the ambassador of Israel on 11 October and wrote to the Palestinian representative to the UK on 13 October. Channels of communication remain open. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians have a consulate general in Scotland, but routes of communication with both the Israelis and the Palestinians are open, and I have no doubt that there will be further communication.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Gaza

Meeting date: 2 November 2023

Angus Robertson

I have not been privy to those conversations, and Mr Cameron will be aware that that is not my direct area of responsibility. He will also appreciate that operational matters for the police and the security services are for Police Scotland and the security services. I have no doubt that they are assiduously assessing the situation and making the necessary decisions.

However, there have been conversations where I and colleagues have a locus—indeed, I think that we all do—with regard to doing everything that we can to support the best community relations possible here. Unfortunately, we have seen that those community relations are being sorely tested in some other parts of Europe and the world.

We must do everything that we can to support Scotland’s Jewish community and to work with our Muslim community, especially people of Palestinian descent. It is very important that we do everything that we can to ensure that, although what is happening in the middle east is a tragedy, it does not lead to a worsening of community relations here.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Gaza

Meeting date: 2 November 2023

Angus Robertson

Mr Ruskell is absolutely right to say that we should not lose sight of the very testing and difficult circumstances in the west bank, which is occupied Palestinian territory. That does not just concern the displacement of Palestinians; it has involved the deaths of Palestinians in recent days. The circumstances for people there are extremely difficult.

The Scottish Government’s position remains as it has always been: the west bank and the Gaza strip form the basis of Palestinian territories that we believe should be part of a two-state solution—a solution that can help to provide both security for the people of Israel and independence and security for the people of Palestine. We will use whatever influence we can.

This is perhaps an opportunity to underline the points that Mr Ruskell and I have made. We should not lose sight of the fact that, notwithstanding the very understandable focus on Gaza, the challenges for people in the west bank continue to be substantive. The Israeli authorities, as the occupying power, have a responsibility to ensure the life, liberty and security of Palestinian people in the west bank, not just of Israeli citizens. We will definitely continue to monitor that.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 5 October 2023

Angus Robertson

Goodness—there was a lot in that.

First, with regard to the regularly funded organisations, I can do no better than quote Creative Scotland’s Iain Munro who, in his evidence to you, said that the use of reserves by Creative Scotland

“will enable us to maintain the payment for the RFOs as planned, without the cut being applied.”

He went on to say:

“given that this £6.6 million is a one-off and that we are using our reserves to offset it, we are protecting the balance of the reserves position to enable transition support, as far as we reasonably can.”

He then said:

“It stabilises the situation.”—[Official Report, Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee, 28 September 2023; c 2, 3, 4.]

That is Creative Scotland’s perspective, and I am immensely grateful for the collaborative approach that we are taking to dealing with the funding pressures that we are all having to manage. In effect, we have been able to ensure that there is no impact on Scotland’s cultural organisations as a result of the funding decision. There will be discussions about the finances for next year and the year after that; however, the commitment has been given with regard to the £6.6 million from this year, and it will be paid during the next financial year.

To those who might have been given the impression that a cut was going to be imposed on cultural organisations as a result of this decision, I have to say that that is factually inaccurate. Indeed, I do not think that such a view is particularly helpful, given the wider concerns that quite rightly exist about the financial pressures on the cultural sector.

09:15  

On the wider point, the first thing to reflect on is that the particular challenge right now is that we are coming to the end of a financial year in which there have been unprecedented additional cost pressures, which I have outlined and which included the funding settlements for pay. That means that money must be found elsewhere, but one has already allocated a significant part of the annual spend earlier in the year, so one is looking at a far smaller part of the budget and a reduced amount of money for the end of the year. That is why we are in a particularly challenging situation with in-year budget finance.

As you would expect from someone in my position, I must look at that and work out what the options are. The best way to explain that is to say that there are three dimensions to the funding challenge within the portfolio. The first relates to major events that are part of the portfolio, including, this year, the UCI cycling world championships. The common consensus is that those were an amazing success for Scotland, but they led to extra costs. The second part of the funding challenge relates to the £6.6 million final payment made to Creative Scotland within this financial year. The remainder of the challenge comes from the uncontracted remaining spend on culture. We must find solutions to all three things because they are not going to go away and we must face them. What are we going to do about that?

On the first part of that equation, although the final figure remains to be worked out, I have acknowledged that something in the order of £8 million will be required in relation to the UCI cycling world championships. Those events brought benefits across Scotland and across Government, and the Scottish Government has agreed that the cost should be borne across Government, rather than simply within the portfolio. That is a hugely significant decision for the portfolio, which is the second smallest in the Government, meaning that that amount would be very significant for our budget.

The second challenge relates to the £6.6 million end-of-year finance payment to Creative Scotland. The fact that Creative Scotland made the decision to use reserves means that that challenge on the Scottish Government budget, which is under significant pressure, is obviated, and that the challenge is also obviated from the point of view of the regularly funded organisations that expect imminent payments. I understand that Creative Scotland is in the process of informing and assuring those organisations that they will be paid as they expected to be.

That leaves the final amount, which is the uncontracted spend for the rest of the year. Although there will be challenges, I am confident that, as a result of decisions made in the three areas, we will be able to ensure that we can fund areas across the culture portfolio that would otherwise have been under threat and where there would not have been the opportunity to use reserves.

That is the key thing to understand about trying to find a solution to funding pressures. None of this has been easy: it has involved colleagues in the culture sector working with Government to ensure that we can get ourselves into the best possible situation in a very challenging context. Given the pressures, I think that we have achieved a very good result.

Did I answer all your questions, which were packaged together?