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Not only was I not invited to attend any board meetings; more importantly, I ensured that the appropriate officials did attend the board meetings. I have now gone round the houses a number of times with this, convener—

But the question has been asked again, so I will answer it again. I have not been invited to a board meeting, but the board meetings have been attended by the appropriate officials, to make sure that we best understand what the discussions are in Historic Environment Scotland and that we, as the Scottish Government, take the responsibilities that are ours. I have run through them, but I will run through them again. We are making sure that we are—

I was invited to the trustees of the National Museums Scotland at one stage, who wanted to talk with me about fundraising and funding—unsurprisingly. I was invited to attend a board meeting of Creative Scotland at one stage, again to talk about funding. However, in the normal run of things, that would not be how the relationship I have as cabinet secretary with the non-departmental bodies would take place.

There is a regular range of meetings that I have, both formal and informal. Some of them are sit-down meetings and some of them are at-site visits—there are different formats for the meetings. They tend to be with the chief executive and/or the chair of that organisation, which is the appropriate way to do it, and that happens with great regularity.

The chief executives and—I hope and I believe—the chairs of the bodies across my areas of responsibility are very well aware of my wish to be informed about anything they would wish to raise with me personally. However, both they and I have the greatest confidence in the sponsorship team in the culture directorate, which has the direct day-to-day responsibility, as senior officials, to talk with the senior officials in the organisations to make sure that we are best informed and doing everything that we need to do.

I think that it is true to say that, in the past, not all board meetings of non-departmental public bodies were attended by sponsorship team officials. It is also fair to say that, by the first quarter of this year, it was obvious that there were issues with Historic Environment Scotland that meant that we—the civil service and Government ministers—needed to have the best insights of where things actually were at the board level, as well as at the other levels at which there are contacts with officials. Because of that, I asked that all board meetings be attended.

I am very keen to answer as fully as I can, Mr Halcro Johnston, but you will appreciate that we might well stray into the territory of HR matters, which I am not—

There is a lot in Mr Harvie’s question. On the self-evident point about terms such as “appropriate” or “proportionately” and/or “zero tolerance”, any fair-minded person would acknowledge that these are slightly different matters to on which to place judgment. I therefore appreciate that he and I need to await the internal processes in relation to any cases in Historic Environment Scotland. I will rest on that in relation to Historic Environment Scotland for today.

However, I want Mr Harvie to have confidence that this is a matter of real importance and real concern to me, not least because people in senior leadership positions have a particular responsibility for how they act. How they act sends signals, both internally in the culture of an organisation and more generally, at a time when, as Mr Harvie correctly identifies, there is growing concern about the normalisation of certain behaviours and language in ways that I hope most of us would believe had been consigned to the dustbin of history. It is not acceptable.

On guidance within Government and to non-departmental bodies, I will have to forward that on to Mr Harvie. I apologise; I do not have that with me. It will exist, and I will make sure that he and the committee have it. I would be very happy to hear the views of Mr Harvie and the committee if there are any reflections that that guidance is not robust enough. I have not been under the impression that the Government’s view on racism and xenophobia is anything other than that they are totally and utterly unacceptable.

I think that the committee is aware that the accountable officer is the chief executive of Historic Environment Scotland. The committee will be aware that there have been periods when the chief executive has not been in post. Mr Kerr will be aware that we are straying into HR territory here, so I need to be cautious about how I address these matters.

My officials were seized of the matter when it became clear that the chief executive officer might not be returning to work. At various stages there have been interactions with the board to explore whether there should be an interim accountable officer in place, but given that it has not been clear over recent months exactly when the chief executive might return to office—at various stages it was thought that she might—the progress of such a replacement has not been taken forward by the board of Historic Environment Scotland.

We are now in a position where the chief executive is fulfilling her responsibilities as accountable officer back at work. That is appropriate. I have wanted to satisfy myself that at no stage have there been any financial decisions that needed sign-off by the accountable officer that could not be proceeded with or needed to be proceeded with in a different way, and that is indeed the case.

I do not know whether Kenneth Hogg wants to add anything on the accountable officer question. I appreciate why it is an important question, but I wish Mr Kerr and the committee to be assured that we have been very involved in making sure that, were there to be any protracted issue with the accountable officer position, it could be remedied. As I have already pointed out, the accountable officer, who is the chief executive, is fulfilling the responsibilities now.

—the last meeting that I had with the chairman and the regular meetings that have taken place with my senior officials, who have attended every board meeting since it became apparent that there was a problem at Historic Environment Scotland—

Yes, I am totally open to attending such a meeting, but I think that Mr Bibby will appreciate that my primary focus is to support Sir Mark in the most appropriate way as he takes forward new leadership in Historic Environment Scotland. I look forward to being apprised by him of the changes that are taking place in terms of the on-going investigations. As the board changes, of course, no doubt the new members of the board, together with those remaining from the old board, will want to reflect on what has transpired at Historic Environment Scotland.

There is a wider point that emanates from Mr Bibby’s question: what are the learnings about how such a situation could come about in the first place, in order to ensure that such a thing never happens again? The range of leadership issues at Historic Environment Scotland are extremely serious, and that concerns us all.

As the board better understands and comes to terms with what has transpired and the solutions to deal with the issues, I certainly would want to be advised by it so that we can make sure that those learnings are available right across the public sector landscape for arm’s-length organisations.

First, the direct answer to Mr Kerr’s question is that I have not attended a board meeting. I have not been invited to attend a board meeting. However, the way that things operate is that cabinet secretaries or relevant ministers meet regularly with the chief executive and the chair of the organisation, and I have done that. I can go through the interaction with the Scottish Government, because I think that if I was in Mr Kerr’s position, I would be concerned if there was not a very close working relationship between the Scottish Government and HES, given the nature of the challenges that have been raised.

First, to anybody who is watching and does not understand how these things work, the Scottish Government has civil servants in the relevant directorate who have a sponsorship role for non-departmental public bodies—they are known as a sponsorship team. Sponsorship officials meet almost daily with Historic Environment Scotland across the full range of HES directorates and staff. Those meetings include regular catch-ups with the HES chief executive’s office, the finance directorate and the people directorate. The Scottish Government estimates that, since the start of May 2025, there have been more than 100 engagements with Historic Environment Scotland. Sponsorship officials have attended all nine HES board meetings since 22 May, following a request by me that they do so. Those board meetings took place on 22 May, 3 July, 21 August, 28 August, 4 September, 11 September, 18 September, 29 September and 15 October. I could go through a range of interactions involving senior civil servants and senior decision makers in HES.

I am keen for Mr Kerr to be aware that there is full engagement at all levels with Historic Environment Scotland, as there is with other non-departmental bodies. If the board of HES wishes me to attend and meet with it, I am happy to do so. As it so happens, I was at the headquarters of HES yesterday. I do not think that anybody should be under any misapprehensions about the level of involvement with HES and the advice that I receive as cabinet secretary about it.