Seòmar agus comataidhean

One of BBC Scotland’s great strengths is its remarkably broad offering with regard to people’s tastes in music, sport, news or talk. It seems to fit in an amazing breadth of content. As a general observation, any reduction in that breadth has to be a matter of concern. Certain musical forms, such as piping or jazz, are not traditionally thought of as mainstream musical offerings, so where else on Scottish or UK radio—or globally, now that one has global access to radio in this digital age—will you hear Scottish pipe music and various forms of jazz?

I remember hearing BBC Radio Scotland’s pipe music programme coming on when I was growing up, and I like jazz—I should declare an interest as I went to school with Tommy Smith, who is one of our greatest musical exports. When people in the arts community say that they think that something such as that cut will have a major negative impact on performers and on a new generation of pipers and jazz musicians, that really needs to be taken seriously. I hope that BBC Radio Scotland will listen to what people have highlighted to it, and I look forward to being able to continue to hear—with a bit of luck—pipe and jazz music on BBC Radio Scotland.

I would love to do an entire session on that, convener, if a shortlist is ever put together for what the committee might want to discuss. I would be delighted to come back to speak about the subject at great length, because I spend a significant part of my time and effort on it.

I recognise the point that Jenni Minto makes. I am very much a glass-half-full person in that respect, and I believe that there are huge opportunities to build on the first-class work that is done by the likes of the national companies, which tour internationally, and by many others besides, who also tour and perform elsewhere.

How do we co-ordinate, work together and do as much as we can to support one another? In that respect, the Scottish Government has a role to play in funding, but also in convening and in respect of some of the assets that we have.

I will give a good example of how we are currently using those assets. Committee members will be aware that we have offices in a number of capital cities around the world, which are used, among other things, for cultural promotion. I was delighted to speak at Scotland House London at the launch of a report on Scotland’s arts and cultural assets, which I highly commend to members. I do not know whether members have seen both the documents that form that report, but they reflect, in significant part, on how Scotland is perceived in cultural terms and how it is that people are able to enjoy the broad spectrum of Scottish cultural offerings.

As an example of what is happening in this particular area, I note that that aspect was the subject of a conversation that I had with the national companies about tours that are taking place. There was discussion about a run of performances happening in Washington DC, and I am keen that we and the Scottish Government office do everything that we can to support that. It does not take a lot of imagination to understand the potential spin-offs for tourism in particular or the other forms of collaboration and co-operation that might emerge from that.

I know that that aspect has been thought about a lot in relation to festivals in Scotland, with regard to looking at how we ensure that we get maximum benefit from the shared experience of others and from those institutions that have international reach, including the Scottish Government, Scottish Development International and others.

I will be happy to come back to the committee to report on that work in greater detail. Work is under way in the Scottish Government specifically in relation to our international cultural priorities to ensure that we make the most of the cultural and artistic sector. Those in the sector are very keen to work with Government and agencies to ensure that we do just that.

That work will have an impact in different ways, because there are particular cultural focuses in different countries. That is one of the reasons why I was delighted to see a Scottish Government office open in Copenhagen in particular, because we can learn huge lessons—for example, in the screen sector—from what Denmark and the other Scandinavian nations have been doing. Those countries are around the same size as Scotland and they speak languages that are not as widely spoken as English, but they have been able to become incredibly successful.

Jenni Minto’s question opens up a broad range of opportunities and I am keen that we grab them with both hands. Money and funding is important in this area, but the intangibles are also part of the process. The good will and the willingness of organisations, host countries and organisations to play a part in it is hugely exciting, which is why it is hugely beneficial to have an international network and talented people who are there to promote Scotland in the broad ways in which they do that. Everybody else does it. We should be very proud of what is already happening, but we can do more to support the culture and arts sector both domestically in the UK and internationally.

First, that process is happening. Some conversations are happening directly: organisations might say, as the national performing companies did last week, that they would like to meet and discuss things from their particular point of view, given how they are funded and structured, and what it is that they do. Conversations are happening at that level.

Some conversations are happening through the round-table sessions, which involve everything from venues and organisations to other parts of our cultural and artistic community in its widest sense. Yes, that includes the performing arts, but we also discuss issues relating to design and architecture, as we did this week, and other aspects of the sector, such as freelancers and small organisations.

There is not a single aspect to that issue, nor is there a single solution to it. The solution will be multifarious, and we will have to be open to new ideas. I would be happy to report back to the committee when those different considerations and suggestions have been worked through. Some organisations in the sector will do some of those things themselves—they are doing them already—but others will rely on support and assistance.

One of the things that has struck me as interesting has been the number of times that I have heard people, during the round-table sessions, say to one another, “It’s really good that we’re meeting.” People are getting to know others who are involved in their world but whom they did not know before, and they are talking about what they are doing in their organisation, which can be shared. That is one of the intangible benefits of that kind of process. That reflects the great advantage of being in a country of Scotland’s size: it is possible to do that. We are taking a hybrid approach: a significant number of people are in the room, but others, often those from other parts of the country, can join those conversations, too.

The discussions are happening. As Jenni Minto has put her finger on, the solutions will largely come from the sector itself. As I have said to the committee previously, it is not the Government that does culture; it is the cultural sector and people in the arts community, although the Government and other agencies are there to, and can, support them. If there are ways in which the Government or other agencies can provide greater coherence, I am all ears, because we will all have to carry some of the burden of getting ourselves through these challenging times. If that means that we have to change how we do things, we should think about that.

My officials and I pore over the evidence that is given to the committee, but if you hear, through visits or other conversations, solutions of which, you think, we or other agencies are not aware, please ensure that we hear them. We need to look for good ideas, some of which might be new and some of which might be older. Especially at such a time—to quote somebody who has been part of the process—we cannot simply hold our breath and think that, in two months’ or two years’ time, it will be business as usual, because it will not.

There might be things that we can do relating to physical infrastructure and ownership, but I draw attention to the fact that we still had problems in Aberdeen in relation to the Belmont facility, which is within the purview of the council. Ownership might be part of the solution in certain circumstances, but the pressures are being felt by everybody, no matter the ownership structure or type of organisation. That reflects the point that the Government and agencies have to be nimble enough, with the notice that I am stressing, to be able to respond and provide the help, support and advice that we can.

There is a lot of help and support available. It is not simply what falls within the purview of my ministerial responsibilities. There are other Government agencies—for example, Scottish Enterprise and so on—that support the economy.

There are other agencies, other bits of the Government and other organisations. We just need to make sure that we are all part of the process. We are doing our best to do that. If anybody wants to be part of that and feels that they have not been part of it yet, they should let themselves be known. We are definitely interested in ideas, wherever they come from.

In terms of the lottery?

There is a lot in Sarah Boyack’s question and commentary, most of which I completely agree with. We have learned from the particular challenges and circumstances relating not only to the Filmhouse but to Dance Base. I think that Sarah Boyack, the convener and other members will appreciate that, as a constituency member for Edinburgh Central, I am constrained in what I can say in general, but also in specific terms, because my colleague Neil Gray, Minister for Culture, Europe and International Development, takes the lead in those areas.

However, as I have discussed with Iain Munro and colleagues at Creative Scotland, speaking in general terms about the challenge to organisations, we will all need to have much more, and earlier, insight into any particular concerns about organisations. If one wants to maximise the potential intervention and support that Sarah Boyack has highlighted—I concur with her that there are a number of sources—one needs to be able to do that before organisations get to a stage where they cannot trade. That is just a statement of fact. If organisations get to a stage where they announce that they cannot trade, it is beyond anybody’s ability—whether that is Creative Scotland or the Scottish Government—to help to maintain those organisations.

At that point, there is a legal process and administration, so there is another set of challenges and potential interventions but, in some respects, the ability to keep organisations standing and going is reduced. I have discussed the issue with Creative Scotland, which is much closer to the organisations, because that is its role. Members will appreciate that the reason why we have a culture and arts organisation such as Creative Scotland is because it is not for ministers to micromanage the interface with individual organisations. However, there is a general understanding that we need to know where the greatest risks are.

Donald Cameron mentioned the evidence that Iain Munro gave to the committee on his concerns about specific organisations. In and around that space, if it is necessary to help, assist or support particular organisations, I am keen that we are able to do that, and I use that “we” in the sense of Creative Scotland, the Scottish Government and other agencies. It will take a cross-agency approach to make sure that we do that as properly as possible. I think that time is the key thing in understanding that.

Members will appreciate that it is not something that I will keep a running commentary on, for the very obvious reasons of commercial sensitivity, but that process is already happening, and organisations have been able to make changes with the support of others, because people have put up their hands in time for other bodies to intervene and support. In certain cases, organisations have been able to make the most of, for example, the philanthropic support that they have received in the past and have been able to secure that in order to continue operating in the circumstances in which they have found themselves.

Specific funding has promoted public support for a return to the arts. That has already been happening. People have their own degree of hesitancy for their own reasons. We therefore need to build confidence, and our cultural organisations have been doing a superb job in giving people assurance and reassurance about why it is safe to return to galleries, theatres and other venues and events.

Can more be done? Absolutely. I am looking forward to going to the opening of Celtic Connections tonight, and I unashamedly use this opportunity to say to anybody who is watching that they should take the opportunity to support events such as Celtic Connections. Where tickets are available, please attend theatres and festivals and events. That is my first observation—that there has already been support for that, but more can absolutely be done.

Sarah Boyack asked about a number of other points in her previous question, which, if she will forgive me, I was not able to come back on. She asked about potential new funding streams or different ways in which resource could be allocated. Notwithstanding all the pressures and constraints, we in the Government are still keen to make progress on that. She mentioned a percentage for the arts scheme, the visitor levy and a better understanding of how social prescribing can operate. Those are all absolutely under on-going discussion in Government and across portfolios, and we will report to Parliament on that in our culture refresh in the spring of this year.

Having said all that, I would not want to miss the opportunity to say that there is some extraordinarily good practice and progress going on. Sarah Boyack mentioned our national performing companies. I do not know whether everybody on the committee saw this morning the report on Scottish Ballet and what it is doing in relation to health and wellbeing, which is exemplary. Its dance health team is a UK first. Opening a national dance centre that will be aimed at helping people in relation to health and wellbeing, dementia and long Covid is exactly the sort of thing that we have been talking about in general principle terms, and which we are now seeing being taken forward. I am sure that there will be more of that.

To go back to the experience from the round-table sessions that we have been having, one of the participants in our Dumfries meeting—which I attended virtually this week—reported on the work that is under way in hospitals, nursing homes and care homes. It is important to appreciate that a lot of what we are aspiring to have even more of, in terms of scale and reach, is currently happening.

There is innovation and outreach, and culture is delivering much more beyond art for art’s sake and even the narrow issue of benefiting the Scottish economy; it is already delivering in areas such as health and wellbeing, which we talked about before. However, we want to widen and grow that, and, notwithstanding the constraints that we are working under, I am still very ambitious about helping to deliver that in a much broader way.

I take the opportunity to support that event as well.

I think that it is fair to put on the record, when discussing Historic Environment Scotland, that the Government has recognised the particular challenge that it is having to deal with, so the agency’s operational budget is rising by 18 per cent, to £114.5 million. That will play a part in the maintenance of property, but it is also for staff pay and a number of other important areas.

I am pleased not only at the good news about Scottish Ballet and what it is doing for health and wellbeing, but that we are beginning to hear some good news about various sites that are reopening. I see, for example, that St Rule’s tower at St Andrews cathedral is reopening on Friday 20 January. Every opening is a significant positive milestone for communities, for which a particular place will be of intrinsic, and tourist and economic, value. At the same time, however, as I am sure Mr Golden and colleagues will appreciate, it is important that Historic Environment Scotland reopens facilities only when it has confidence that the people attending those sites will be safe.

Mr Golden has asked me to give a number. I cannot give him one, but I will be happy to ask Historic Environment Scotland for the latest update on its facilities. In relation to the committee’s deliberations, with the subject of today’s session being where we are with the budget, the Government’s commitment in respect of the budgetary situation for Historic Environment Scotland reflects an understanding that reopening sites is a big challenge for the agency. It will be an on-going challenge, but I am glad that facilities are reopening. When that can happen safely, and as quickly as possible, it is to be welcomed.

I agree with Sarah Boyack that—I said this in my answer to Donald Cameron—bringing in innovation as quickly as possible is part of the solution to how we move from where we are currently to a better place where we have introduced other funding streams.

Incidentally, as I think I have mentioned to the committee previously, there is also an opportunity for greater coherence in philanthropic support for culture and the arts. There are tremendously generous individuals, trusts, organisations and private sector companies that do an incredible amount to support the arts. That is another area in which we need to work together across agencies, with Government and the philanthropic sector. For example, with the national companies, which have been mentioned, we can work on what we can do to support international and touring efforts.

There is a wide range of ways in which we can help and support. Some of those will require finance, but some will not, because they relate to the convening power of Government or agencies such as Creative Scotland, which need to think anew about how we do things. One of my biggest takeaways from speaking with the sector in the round-table meetings that I mentioned is that there is an understanding that doing nothing is not an option and that we will have to face up to the scale of the challenges.

I fully acknowledge Sarah Boyack’s point about Creative Scotland’s spending constraints, and what she said about reserves not being a long-term solution to such spending constraints. One challenge that we have picked up on in conversations with artistic organisations is that they have been spending their reserves and, when one is trying to proceed through a storm, it is a challenge if one’s ability to use reserves is denuded. However, without making the same point at great length again, we are not in normal financial circumstances, so we are going to have to find a way through the storm, and I am sure that we will do it. There are a lot of good examples of the innovation that is happening.

Incidentally, I should say that I am interested in hearing from others who face similar circumstances, and I was pleased to finally meet with the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport for the United Kingdom, Michelle Donelan, who is my opposite number, a few weeks ago. She faces many of the same problems in her portfolio areas in relation to the funding of culture and arts and the same pressures, which people will be aware of, such as theatre closures in England, because of the same financial challenges, the post-Covid impact and so on.

I am keen to work with colleagues not only in the rest of the UK, but further afield. Are others taking approaches that we can learn from? Alternatively, we may be doing things that we can share. I am keen to work in a collegiate way with colleagues, and I am happy to support the culture sector’s call with regard to the Treasury’s tax treatment of theatres and other venues. I discussed that matter with Michelle Donelan, and I have subsequently written to the Treasury to underline how important it is in the current circumstances that, when tax decisions are made, they do not worsen the situation.

Where it is possible to work together, I am absolutely up for doing that, and I am doing it. Where there are more opportunities to learn from elsewhere, I am keen to do that as well.

There is a very strong case to be made that some of the biggest impacts might be felt through the endangerment of the smaller and smallest organisations. You mentioned a semi-rural community where there is a much smaller population, and that organisation might be the only arts and cultural outlet in that small community. If it was to close, there would be nothing.

Is that a serious situation? Absolutely—of course it is. It is therefore absolutely right that the Government is doing everything that it can for the directly funded national companies, that Creative Scotland is doing everything that it can for the regularly funded organisations, and that we are both doing what we can for the smaller organisations for which we have responsibility.

There is also a local government dimension to this. There is funding and support for culture from local government, and we are seeking to work more on that with our colleagues in the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. For example, my culture minister colleague Neil Gray has been meeting culture leads.

We need to be cognisant of the value and the importance of art for art’s sake—I have now said that twice, because it is so important—but I think that we all agree that the economic and broader benefits that we have been talking about are the prize in linking culture with the wider governmental and societal benefits of mainstreaming culture. Going backwards is obviously not a good thing, so I am seized of ensuring that we have the time to consider where there are particular risks or warning mechanisms around particular groups or organisations, and the kinds of intervention that can be made to reduce those risks.

Will that be successful in all cases? I hope so, and I am certainly minded to work very closely with our colleagues in Creative Scotland and local government to make sure that it is.