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I know that that is very much a priority for the chairman, Sir Mark Jones, who is dealing with a very difficult situation. I know that he is cognisant of all of those factors. I have met HES staff in formal and informal settings and it is clear that, at all levels of the organisation, there is great concern about the circumstances in which it finds itself. You have seen the reports, as have I, about a range of issues that would cause anybody in any workplace very serious concern, but I think that, with new leadership on the board, we are now in a position where those issues can be addressed.

Everybody who is involved directly and indirectly with the situation at HES says that it is an amazing organisation that delivers on the ground—that is important to us all—and that the challenge is one of leadership. That is why I am pleased that we have a new chair in place, that there is to be a chief operating officer to support the changes that will need to take place, and that I will be appointing two new members of the board.

The committee is aware of the process that has been gone through and has taken evidence on the different layers of challenges that exist, but I can say that I am confident that we have, in Sir Mark, somebody who will be able to lead these changes. My civil service colleagues and I will be doing everything that is appropriate for us to support those changes being made.

I deemed it necessary that the responsible officials who deal with the day-to-day management of the organisation at that level should attend the meeting. That is the normal custom and practice.

No, that formed part of the emerging picture in relation to the problems in Historic Environment Scotland. Some of the issues have come to light internally, some have come to light externally, and some have come to light through the media. They contribute to a picture that is a concern for us all.

There were issues that we were aware of, particularly in the first quarter of this year, which helped us to understand that there was a problem in the leadership of Historic Environment Scotland. That was added to by whistleblower information, media reports and then growing formal and informal reports of the different issues that we have all become aware of.

You did not let me finish the sentence, Mr Halcro Johnston.

The normal custom and practice for the cabinet secretary is to meet with the chief executives of organisations, and I have done that on a number of occasions.

It is important for the public—who might, understandably, not be aware—to know that the interrelationship with non-departmental public bodies is through what is known as the sponsorship team within the civil service. The appropriate officials attended every single meeting—at my request—to make sure that we were best informed about things. The amount of interaction that has taken place between the Scottish Government in my area of responsibility and Historic Environment Scotland is—I could not even guess what the level of engagement is with Historic Environment Scotland relative to other non-departmental public bodies. We are extremely seized of the matter.

I think that the important relationship that I have had, presently and in the past, is with the chief executive of the organisation in question. I have that relationship with the current chief executive officer and, as I said in answer to Mr Kerr, I have met a number of times with the incoming chair of Historic Environment Scotland. As I have also said, if the board ever wished me to come along and attend a meeting, I would be content to do so. However, the appropriate level of interaction for my position is with the chief executive of this or any other organisation, and I must satisfy myself that my officials are dealing with the other levels of the organisation, so that we are best informed.

We now find ourselves at a really important inflection point for Historic Environment Scotland. Not only has a new chief executive been brought into the organisation, but a new chair and new board members have been brought into the organisation, and a new chief operating officer will be brought into the organisation. All of that has taken place with the Scottish Government playing the appropriate role in making it happen.

Would I have wished for the past leadership of Historic Environment Scotland to have dealt with all the issues? Absolutely. Now is, unfortunately, the time that others need to do so.

I have not requested to meet the board, because—

In the fullness of time, as some of the issues come out in the form of investigations, I think that it will become clear that we are talking about problems of a different magnitude compared with any other organisation, where there are standard HR issues that come up from time to time. We are talking about extremely challenging circumstances.

As Kenneth Hogg has pointed to, in the sponsorship team within the culture directorate—which deals with the national public bodies in the museums, galleries and Creative Scotland side of things—there is much greater sensitivity to any potential early warning signs of what we believe may have taken place at Historic Environment Scotland. We have no sign of that being the case elsewhere.

We have officials who are very involved, and I have given the committee evidence at some length about the number of meetings and the range of formats with very senior officials informing ourselves about the problems. That institutional memory and understanding within the civil service and with myself would stand us in good stead if there were to be any signs of similar developments elsewhere.

I am not aware of such a range of issues occurring in any other one of the arm’s-length, non-departmental public bodies. I have spoken with ministerial colleagues in the Scottish Government to ask, “Is anybody aware of these sorts of developments, at this scale with this range, and the potential reasons why?” Nobody has any memory of there being such an example. Therefore, we will do everything we can to deal with the matter now, and we will also learn any lessons to make sure that it does not happen in future.

They would be right to be concerned if the meetings had not been attended, but they were attended and I was fully informed about what proceeded at them—

I do not think that I have any meetings at the present time. However, as I have always said, I am open to dialogue with trade unions in any circumstance. I am aware that the trade unions have been involved in relation to some of the internal matters, which, as Mr Bibby will appreciate, I cannot go into in any level of detail. The trade unions’ locus, as I understand it, is in relation to their members as part of the staff team at Historic Environment Scotland.

I am not aware of any request for a meeting with the unions. They will appreciate that on these HR issues the locus is not mine. Mr Bibby will understand that. I do not want to give him the impression that I am against meeting with trade unions, especially where there are distressed circumstances. I am not against that, if it is felt that it is appropriate. However, there has never been a suggestion from them that they would wish to meet me, given that I do not have that direct locus in the issues that they are raising.

I want to give Mr Brown total assurance about my personal interest in, and the Government’s interest in, ensuring that organisations that have commercial potential are able to secure additional and sustainable funding streams. Forgive me—I am looking for the number, which is not at the top of my head. Historic Environment Scotland now has commercial income of north of £70 million annually, which is significantly more than it has been in recent years. HES is able to do that because the Scottish Government has changed the accountancy procedures that previously acted as a disincentive for it to make more commercial income. That is the first thing.

We have recognised the opportunity that Mr Brown has drawn our attention to. I think that we all understand the challenge facing Historic Environment Scotland, given the nature of our historic estate in Scotland. HES has more than 300 sites. In addition to historical wear and tear, the environmental impact is accelerating the decline at a lot of these very old sites. Anything that can be done to consider a “proper return”, to use Mr Brown’s words, and to think imaginatively about how we can marry up the diaspora and other interests with different parts of Scotland and support particular projects.

As Mr Brown knows, I have responsibility for diaspora matters for the Scottish Government. I have also spoken with the new chief executive and chair about signposting particular projects that are under way in Scotland. They might be Historic Environment Scotland projects, or they might be projects with the National Trust for Scotland or Historic Houses. There is a range of different bits of our historic estate that are, because of wear and tear and environmental damage, in need of significant investment. There is much more that we can do in that regard.

We have made the changes that have begun the process. Is there more that can be done? Yes. Do I believe that the new chief executive and the new chairman are and will be seized of that? Yes, I am. This is one of the grounds for the optimism that I have, notwithstanding the serious challenges that there have been in Historic Environment Scotland. HES’s core business and the opportunity that it has to deal with the challenges of maintaining the estate are issues that it will be able to address with the new leadership that is coming into place in the organisation.